Sex scandals in the Church

[Guest]

If you read the letters Jesus sent to the seven churches, there were five where he was pretty brutal and He brought them to a point of decision.  Either they get their act together, or there was judgment coming from Him upon them. 

 

Interesting what the first church Jesus addressed was rebuked for.

 

 

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

 

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

 

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

 

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

 

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:1-7

[Guest shiloh357]

 

If you read the letters Jesus sent to the seven churches, there were five where he was pretty brutal and He brought them to a point of decision.  Either they get their act together, or there was judgment coming from Him upon them. 

 

Interesting what the first church Jesus addressed was rebuked for.

 

Yes, but that is not an emotional "love."  He is talking about.  Jesus wasn't complaining that they weren't having the warm and fuzzies for Him anymore.  Don't try to interpret this in emotional terms.

 

He was accusing them of disobedience.  He called on them to  remember from where they had fallen, repent and return to the first works or otherwise He was going to take their candlestick away.   He was going to dissolve the church if they didn't repent.   And guess what??   It happened.  "first love" means "first works"   "Love" is not emtional in the Bible.  Love is active and rooted in action.   They had allowed compromise to creep in and Jesus informed them in no uncertain terms that if they didn't repent, there would be severe reprecussions.

 

Our problem in the church today is that WE minimize obedience.  We don't care about the details the little compromises and we sink further and further into disobedience.   We are bringing ourselves under God's judgment because God doesn't overlook our sin.  Sin has to be dealt with and if we won't address it, God will.   And He has promised that judgment always comes to the House of God first.

[nebula]

 

 

If you read the letters Jesus sent to the seven churches, there were five where he was pretty brutal and He brought them to a point of decision.  Either they get their act together, or there was judgment coming from Him upon them.

 

Interesting what the first church Jesus addressed was rebuked for.

 

Yes, but that is not an emotional "love."  He is talking about.  Jesus wasn't complaining that they weren't having the warm and fuzzies for Him anymore.  Don't try to interpret this in emotional terms.

 

Shiloh - do you believe I've been talking about emotional "love" and warm fuzzies all this time?

You should know me better than that.

 

He was accusing them of disobedience.  He called on them to  remember from where they had fallen, repent and return to the first works or otherwise He was going to take their candlestick away.   He was going to dissolve the church if they didn't repent.   And guess what??   It happened.  "first love" means "first works"

You lost me here.

Since when the did the word agape mean "works?

 

"Love" is not emtional in the Bible.  Love is active and rooted in action.   They had allowed compromise to creep in and Jesus informed them in no uncertain terms that if they didn't repent, there would be severe reprecussions.

Wow, how did you pencil that one in?

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne , and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured , and hast not fainted.

Jesus listed "works" among the things He was praising them for.

There are only two churches where Jesus rebuked their "works" and that was the churches in Sardis and Laodicea.

Question: Why would would Jesus have called anything but love for God "first love"? Is that not the first and greatest commandment?

I've encountered many people who are full of theology but show little evidence of actually walking with God. I would describe their "faith" the same as Jesus did to the Ephesians here.

As far as the "first works" of the Ephesians, the only insight we have into them was a massive "curious arts" book burning.

 

Our problem in the church today is that WE minimize obedience.  We don't care about the details the little compromises and we sink further and further into disobedience.   We are bringing ourselves under God's judgment because God doesn't overlook our sin.  Sin has to be dealt with and if we won't address it, God will.   And He has promised that judgment always comes to the House of God first.

I'm not arguing that we don't have an "obedience" problem in the "Church" today.

 

What I am arguing is about what keeps you from falling into disobedience - fear of judgment or loving God and preferring closeness with Him to the pleasures of sin.

[Guest shiloh357]

He was accusing them of disobedience.  He called on them to  remember from where they had fallen, repent and return to the first works or otherwise He was going to take their candlestick away.   He was going to dissolve the church if they didn't repent.   And guess what??   It happened.  "first love" means "first works"

 

You lost me here.

Since when the did the word agape mean "works?

 

 

To clarify, what I am saying is that when he says they have lost their first love AND he is calling them back to the first works, there is a connection. He is calling them to return to what they once had.   I am not saying that "works" is a translation of agape.  I am saying that the phrase "first works" answers to what "first love" refers to in the earlier part of the letter.

 

"Love" is not emtional in the Bible.  Love is active and rooted in action.   They had allowed compromise to creep in and Jesus informed them in no uncertain terms that if they didn't repent, there would be severe reprecussions.

 

Wow, how did you pencil that one in?

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne , and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured , and hast not fainted.

Jesus listed "works" among the things He was praising them for.

 

 

He was praising them for certain works.  He commanded them to repent and return to the "first works."  Meaning that what He was praising them for was not "the first works."  What he mentions there in what you have quoted is their doctrinal purity.  Jesus praises them for test false teachers. and for rejecting the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which is connected to sexual immorality.

 

 

There are only two churches where Jesus rebuked their "works" and that was the churches in Sardis and Laodicea.

 

Jesus condemned all but two churches.  Smyrna and Philadelphia are the only two churches that Jesus didn't offer any condemnation.   If you follow the order of the other five, you will see that from Ephesus going in order from Pergamos, Sardis, Thyatira and Laodicea, there is a downward progression from compromise to becoming apostate.

 

Question: Why would would Jesus have called anything but love for God "first love"? Is that not the first and greatest commandment?

 

Love is doing.  Love is a commandment because love is operative nature. 

 

I've encountered many people who are full of theology but show little evidence of actually walking with God. I would describe their "faith" the same as Jesus did to the Ephesians here.

 

That may be true, but that doesn't really speak to the issue you raised in the OP.  I raised the issue of Pergamos because they had fallen into sexual immorality and had fallenn to the ways of the culture.

 

What I am arguing is about what keeps you from falling into disobedience - fear of judgment or loving God and preferring closeness with Him to the pleasures of sin.

 

It is a healthy combination of both.  There needs to be the relationship, but there also needs to be a healthy fear of God in our lives.   He is not our buddy.  He is still our most dread sovereign and eternal judge and we do well not to forget that important truth.  We are still accountable to Him and will have to stand before Him and give an account to Him for what we have done or should have done, but didn't.

 

As far as the "first works" of the Ephesians, the only insight we have into them was a massive "curious arts" book burning.

 

[nebula]

To clarify, what I am saying is that when he says they have lost their first love AND he is calling them back to the first works, there is a connection. He is calling them to return to what they once had.   I am not saying that "works" is a translation of agape.  I am saying that the phrase "first works" answers to what "first love" refers to in the earlier part of the letter.

Why would Jesus call works "agape" and not works? If "first love" is "first works", what do you suppose those works were by which Jesus would refer to them as "agape"?

If "obedience" was on His heart, why would He not address it as such? Why would He not proclaim what they were being disobedient about, like He did with the other churches?

 

He was praising them for certain works.  He commanded them to repent and return to the "first works."  ...

So, what were their "first works" specifically? And again, why would He have referred to their not doing these works as having lost their "first love"?

 

 

 

There are only two churches where Jesus rebuked their "works" and that was the churches in Sardis and Laodicea.

Jesus condemned all but two churches.  Smyrna and Philadelphia are the only two churches that Jesus didn't offer any condemnation.

 

Let me explain myself here -

There are only two churches where Jesus rebuked their "works" and that was the churches in Sardis and Laodicea. The other two churches Jesus rebuked were for their beliefs.

The church of Pergamos was rebuked for those who followed the doctrine of Balaam and those that followed the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.

The church of Thyratira "sufferest that woman Jezebel" - the sins she led them into were founded on her deceptions (thus, belief-based).

So, the Ephesian church was not guilty of doing anything wrong, but having forsaken something precious.

 

If you follow the order of the other five, you will see that from Ephesus going in order from Pergamos, Sardis, Thyatira and Laodicea, there is a downward progression from compromise to becoming apostate.

Agree. First was a loss of love, and that set the stage for the other evils to overcome.

 

 

Question: Why would would Jesus have called anything but love for God "first love"? Is that not the first and greatest commandment?

Love is doing.  Love is a commandment because love is operative nature.

 

So again, we are back to what it was about their operation that Jesus would call it "forsaking their first love" rather than tagging the specific actions?

 

 

I've encountered many people who are full of theology but show little evidence of actually walking with God. I would describe their "faith" the same as Jesus did to the Ephesians here.

That may be true, but that doesn't really speak to the issue you raised in the OP.

 

How not? Are Bible teachers not judged by their theology rather than by their lives?

 

I raised the issue of Pergamos because they had fallen into sexual immorality and had fallenn to the ways of the culture.

OK, but by now this thread has diverged into tackling more than one issue.

 

 

What I am arguing is about what keeps you from falling into disobedience - fear of judgment or loving God and preferring closeness with Him to the pleasures of sin.

It is a healthy combination of both.  There needs to be the relationship, but there also needs to be a healthy fear of God in our lives.   He is not our buddy.  He is still our most dread sovereign and eternal judge and we do well not to forget that important truth.  We are still accountable to Him and will have to stand before Him and give an account to Him for what we have done or should have done, but didn't.

 

Sure, but I never claimed God as "our buddy". And while yes it is important to stand in awe of His holiness and sovereignty, it is critical that we fall deeper into His love.

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. (Eph. 3)

Psalm 36

5 Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.

6 Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast.

7 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

8 They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.

9 For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.

10 O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart.

[Qnts2]

Just a thought. In my view the following verse would indicate a loss of 'first love'.

 

Isaish 29:13 Then the Lord said,

“Because this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,