TWO comings TWO raptures

[Last Daze]

All chistians believe in jesus the Son of God,and so does satan.

 

jesse.

 

There is a difference between "believing in Jesus" and "believing Jesus exists".

[Guest Jesse]

 

All chistians believe in jesus the Son of God,and so does satan.

 

jesse.

 

There is a difference between "believing in Jesus" and "believing Jesus exists".

 

True; we must walk in the spirit of Christ.

We must eat his flesh.

 

jesse.

[tevans9129]

 

 

 

Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation.

There's a clear distinction between tribulation and God's wrath / judgment.  People tend to use those words interchangeably when it concerns end times prophecy and obfuscate their meanings by turning it into basically a "certain time of yucky".  Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.  At least that's been my experience.

 

1) Paul said,

 

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?

 

1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

As I see it, God's judgment / wrath is in the seven trumpets / vials of the seventh seal.  The first six seals are events that include the great tribulation,not judgments, not wrath.

 

2) Did Jesus not say that the great tribulation would be the last 3 ½ years of Daniel’s 70^th week? If that is true, then how could the “first six seals” be in the GT?

 

I think we can all agree that in the world we will have tribulation and at some point it will turn into a great tribulation, and that we are not appointed for wrath.  Substitute "tribulation" with "persecution" and I think its a better read since the meaning of "tribulation" has become convoluted.

 

3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?

Persecution is something believers should expect to encounter, not escape.

 

4) The Christians that I know would never suggest that we are not to suffer, tribulations/persecutions but we do believe the promises of God that those that will be alive in the last days will not suffer the wrath of God as outlined in Rev 6 – 18. For those that do not want to claim the promises that God has made, you have my prayers.

 

5) If I may ask a couple of questions….do you believe that God is a just and fair God?

 

6) If you do, I have the following question, there were Bible believing twins in the last days, one twin died in an accident and was buried, a few days later, the tribulations and wrath as outlined in Revelation began. The second twin had to endure seven years of pure hell on earth. Do you think a just and fair God would consider that as being fair?

 

The distinction needs to be made.

 

7) Do you believe there is a very distinct difference in tribulations/ persecutions and the great tribulation and the wrath of God as spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to Daniel’s 70th week?

 

8) Does v16,17 seem to suggest that God’s wrath actually began in chapter 6?

 

Revelation 6:16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

Revelation 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

9) I have asked Salty this question but he is not big on answering questions so perhaps you can, in your opinion, what is the reason for the tribulation period in the last days as spoken of in Revelation?

 

 

 

Your reply supports the notion that unless basic terms and definitions are established up front, the conversation winds up being pretty meaningless.

 

1) You missed my point completely, probably from the misconception that the seven year covenant is "pure hell on earth" per your #6.

 

2) The great tribulation is referring to as a time of persecution of believers.  “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Matt 24:9  The great tribulation has nothing to do with God's wrath or judgment.  The great tribulation starts at the fifth seal (near the middle of the 7 year covenant) when the the false prophet issues the "worship or die" ultimatum and ends at the sixth seal with the rapture.

 

3) Too vague of a question without establishing definitions.

 

4) I think you are either confused on what God's wrath is or what I said.

 

5) Really?

 

6) Sounds like you're confused on what happens during the 7 year covenant.  As for your sense of fairness...What is that to you?  You should follow Jesus. "So Peter seeing him [John] said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus *said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” John 21:21-22, and don't forget about the laborers in the vineyard in Matt 20.  I think your concept of fairness needs work.

 

7) During the 7 year covenant, there is a distinct difference between the great tribulation that believers will endure and the wrath of God.  Yes. 

 

8) Actually, chapter 8, when the seventh seal is opened.

 

9) Define "tribulation period in the last days" as you understand it.

 

When you see the seven year covenant made, and the church is still here, what will you make of it?  Will you double-down on the pre-trib view?  It doesn't really matter.  What matters is that you discern the signs and  refuse to worship the false prophet.  I would focus on that and not the rapture.  We have no say in when the rapture will happen but we do have a say in whether we worship the false prophet or not.  Priorities.

 

 

Your reply supports the notion that unless basic terms and definitions are established up front, the conversation winds up being pretty meaningless.

 

1) Sounds reasonable, I will offer my meanings, generically, in hopes of better understanding.

 

1a) Persecution  NGSM LN39.45- to systematically organize a program to oppress and harass people. (Louw Nida) 

 

1b) Tribulation NASF LN22.2 - trouble involving direct suffering. (Louw Nida)

 

1c) God’s wrath NNSF LN3810 - divine punishment based on God’s angry judgment against someone. (Louw Nida)

 

1d) The more accurate meanings are determined by the morphology of the original word and the context of the passage, therefore, I think it is more appropriate to determine the meaning as it relates to the specific passage.

 

1e) The last days, the latter days, in that day, time of Jacob’s distress – refer to the 70^th week of Daniel, Revelation 6-18.

 

2) Hope this helps you to see my perspective.  Your comments?

[tevans9129]

1) You missed my point completely, probably from the misconception that the seven year covenant is "pure hell on earth" per your #6.

 

1) I am confused how I missed your point when you said,

 

“Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.” 

 

1a) Can you clarify exactly, what your point was in your phrase, “because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.”?

 

2) Even if I did miss your point, does that preclude you from answering the two questions?

 

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?

 

1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?

[Last Daze]

 

Your reply supports the notion that unless basic terms and definitions are established up front, the conversation winds up being pretty meaningless.

 

1) Sounds reasonable, I will offer my meanings, generically, in hopes of better understanding.

 

1a) Persecution  NGSM LN39.45- to systematically organize a program to oppress and harass people. (Louw Nida) 

 

1b) Tribulation NASF LN22.2 - trouble involving direct suffering. (Louw Nida)

 

1c) God’s wrath NNSF LN3810 - divine punishment based on God’s angry judgment against someone. (Louw Nida)

 

1d) The more accurate meanings are determined by the morphology of the original word and the context of the passage, therefore, I think it is more appropriate to determine the meaning as it relates to the specific passage.

 

1e) The last days, the latter days, in that day, time of Jacob’s distress – refer to the 70^th week of Daniel, Revelation 6-18.

 

2) Hope this helps you to see my perspective.  Your comments?

 

 

I agree with your definitions and the importance of context.

 

I don't think that "the last days" or "the latter days" is synonymous with the 70th week of Daniel.  I think the 70th week of Daniel is contained within the last or latter days.  The last or latter days, as I see it, begin when the first seal is opened.  The time of Jacob's distress I associate with the abomination of desolation.

[Last Daze]

1) You missed my point completely, probably from the misconception that the seven year covenant is "pure hell on earth" per your #6.

 

1) I am confused how I missed your point when you said,

 

“Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.” 

 

1a) Can you clarify exactly, what your point was in your phrase, “because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.”?

 

2) Even if I did miss your point, does that preclude you from answering the two questions?

 

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?

 

1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?

 

What I was getting at was that pre-tribbers like to equate the whole seven year covenant as a time of God's wrath and judgment.  By doing so, it bolsters their claim that the rapture happens before the seven years because believers are not appointed for wrath.  If you don't like the word "escapist" change it to something you like.

[tevans9129]

2) The great tribulation is referring to as a time of persecution of believers.  “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Matt 24:9 

 

1) I believe you have misconstrued Matthew 24 for the reasons that I have offered in the link below.

 

 

2) If, you can answer ALL of the questions that I asked in that post and do so with scripture as it is written, then I will adjust my interpretation of the chapter. If not, I believe your assertions are incorrect. What say you?

[tevans9129]

3) Too vague of a question without establishing definitions.

 

1) OK, now that I have provided the definitions and you seem to agree with them, can you answer the question,

 

“3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?”

[tevans9129]

 

 

Salty -   I've addressed all points you've raised, and pointed you to the Scriptures on the matter, more Scriptures about the subject than you include in your limited question scope. Sounds like you're wanting to do a bowing out.

 

 

 

 

 1) Salty, there are times when I do “bow out” of a dialogue and the reasons are, if, someone is intentionally dishonest, as an example, if I point out they have not answered my questions and they respond with something like, “I have addressed all of your points” and ignore the fact that they have not answered my questions, then I construe that as being dishonest.

 

2) The number two reason is when they refuse to answer my questions, all of them, and provide supporting evidence with scripture just as it is written.

 

3) I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

 

4) I have asked a number of questions that you have not answered and if that is general practice for you, then there would be nothing productive from a dialogue. Therefore, if you can answer my questions, all of them, just as I am willing to do for you, I will enthusiastically discuss any subject you choose, if not, then I will not waste your time or mine.

[Last Daze]

2) The great tribulation is referring to as a time of persecution of believers.  “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Matt 24:9 

 

1) I believe you have misconstrued Matthew 24 for the reasons that I have offered in the link below.

 

 

2) If, you can answer ALL of the questions that I asked in that post and do so with scripture as it is written, then I will adjust my interpretation of the chapter. If not, I believe your assertions are incorrect. What say you?

 

For what reason are those delivered to tribulation in Matt 24:9 and why are they hated by all nations and killed?  The reason is very explicit...because of the name of Jesus.  It is clearly those who believe in Jesus that He is referring to.  No amount of tap-dancing will change that.

 

Christians (saints)  will be delivered to tribulation, hated, and killed under the rule of the false prophet in large numbers because of the name of Jesus.

 

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes...These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Rev 7:9,14

 

To say that the great multitude results from some "revival" after the pre-trib rapture runs contrary to the spiritual climate of the last days: "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." 2 Thess 2:3 and "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false" 2 Thess 2:11  Not very fertile ground for a revival, especially a great multitude beyond number.

 

The great multitude is made up of those who reject the mark: "Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." Rev 14:12

 

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him." Rev 13:7

 

"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them." Daniel 7:21

 

What do I say?  I say that its more important to be prepared for what's coming than to engage in endless debate about the rapture.  The rapture will happen when it happens and none of our debate will affect when that is.  The question is what will be your trigger event?  The seven year agreement?  The destruction of the world's capital and the ensuing wars and rumors of war?  Someone in the Middle East calling fire down from heaven?  A mandatory mark in order to buy or sell?  Which event will cause a rethink?  It really doesn't matter which one does, as long as one of them does.  That's what I say.  Just be prepared.