PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Love is alive]

My views are clearly not the most popular, so i will not comment on most of this discussion. I will simply say this to the pretribers. Find me one scripture in the entire Bible that says that the rapture will take place before the tribulation. It cannot be done because there is not one. If you can find it thou i would certainly like to see it. I will eagerly await your scriptural evidence!

[missmuffet]

My views are clearly not the most popular, so i will not comment on most of this discussion. I will simply say this to the pretribers. Find me one scripture in the entire Bible that says that the rapture will take place before the tribulation. It cannot be done because there is not one. If you can find it thou i would certainly like to see it. I will eagerly await your scriptural evidence!

Find me one scripture that says what will definately happen in the end times.Mid,post,no trib.I will eagerly await your scriptural evidence.

[ARGOSY]

My views are clearly not the most popular, so i will not comment on most of this discussion. I will simply say this to the pretribers. Find me one scripture in the entire Bible that says that the rapture will take place before the tribulation. It cannot be done because there is not one. If you can find it thou i would certainly like to see it. I will eagerly await your scriptural evidence!

Find me one scripture that says what will definately happen in the end times.Mid,post,no trib.I will eagerly await your scriptural evidence.

How about the opening post? There's two scriptures there.

How about a famous rapture chapter, 1 corinthians 15 which relates the rapture to the RESURRECTION (which occurs at the second coming)

How about another famous rapture chapter, 1 Thess 4... which then goes onto 1 Thess 5, relating this rapture to the day of the Lord and the thief in the night and the destruction of the ungodly.

I am sorry that you have been taught badly, but do you know that every thief in the night verse, and surprise rapture verse relates to the second coming, and not an earlier rapture? Regarding all truth, for all of us we need much study with openness to the bible above taught doctrine to reach the truth.

[ARGOSY]

Argosy

 

Israel only believes when they see Christ at the Second Coming, not before (there are still the elect)

 

Zech 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.  They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him ........... 13:2 - On that day I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more.  A re-look at Rev 9: 20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons and idols.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes I agree, most of Israel does only believe at the second coming. Still, there are other believers earlier during the tribulation. for example in Revelation 6 we see that some believers have already been killed, and they are to wait longer for more to be killed before the judgment.

Rev 6: How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

So during the 5th seal, there were already persecuted believers, and there were still more persecuted believers to come. This will occur before the final repentance you are referring to from Zech 12.

Even in Revelation 9 believers are on earth:

They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Sure you can insert a rapture in somewhere, and assume there are no believers on earth for a short while and point to some events that don't have christians. But no verse actually states this, and every rapture verse is in second coming context, so there is actually a big problem with a doctrine that has zero scriptural support. On the contrary verses like Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:7 indicate a FULL 3.5 years of persecution of the saints. This is not limited to the end of the tribulation, but encompasses the whole tribulation.

[ARGOSY]

Why does it seems like the pre-tribbers are on the hot seat the most on this website?I am tired of it. 

Good observation Bo. I think it's because most of the books and media portray the rapture as pre trib, which kind of makes you the big boy on the block. And everyone wants to knock them down a peg.

I understand bopeeps sentiments. It is tiring to defend a view, often we feel if it is left undefended the public may be swayed the wrong way if they read these threads, so we feel obliged to participate. But post-tribbers normally are just trying to prepare the church for our greatest test and trial, it will probably come during our lifetime. That is simply my motivation.

[Enoch2021]

Perhaps I did not word that well, for I do understand the "catching away" or rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4.  And, the second coming in Revelation 19.

 

My questions were more specifically about the descriptions of what is said to be "one event" but they are so different.

 

From your answer, which I thank you, it appears you are in the pre-trib rapture camp, Enoch?

 

Peace to you, 

Prair

 

 

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My questions were more specifically about the descriptions of what is said to be "one event" but they are so different.

 

That's because they're not "One Event"

 

 

From your answer, which I thank you, it appears you are in the pre-trib rapture camp, Enoch?

 

According to Scripture, there is no other camp.  For there to be another camp......mainly Post Trib, you have BIG Scriptural Problems:

 

1.  Denies The Doctrine of Imminence

2.  Requires the Church to be here During the 70th Week of Daniel

3.  The Church experiences GOD'S Wrath

4.  How can the Bride (Church) come with Jesus if she's not Raptured First?

5.  Who's going to populate the Millennium?

6.  Who are the "Sheep and Goat" Judgement?  (Matthew 25)

7.  How can the Virgin's of Matthew 25 buy oil without the mark of the beast?

8.  The Seven Lampstands

9.  The 24 Elders

[Enoch2021]

My views are clearly not the most popular, so i will not comment on most of this discussion. I will simply say this to the pretribers. Find me one scripture in the entire Bible that says that the rapture will take place before the tribulation. It cannot be done because there is not one. If you can find it thou i would certainly like to see it. I will eagerly await your scriptural evidence!

 

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My views are clearly not the most popular,

 

This isn't a "Popularity" or "Consensus" rules the day subject; it's.........WHAT DOES GOD SAY.

 

 

say this to the pretribers. Find me one scripture in the entire Bible that says that the rapture will take place before the tribulation.

 

First, don't equivocate "tribulation" (Little "t") with the Great Tribulation.  The Great Tribulation is GOD'S WRATH and is sourced by GOD.....

 

(Matthew 24:21) " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

And....

 

(Romans 2:5) "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;"

 

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

(Revelation 14:10) "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

 

 

**(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

 

Paul is speaking concerning "The Church" here.

 

 

See it?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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for example in Revelation 6 we see that some believers have already been killed, and they are to wait longer for more to be killed before the judgment.

 

That's Incorrect. They are the Martyrs that died for the WORD of GOD from the 1st Century until then....They are told to wait for the others to be killed (Tribulation Saints):

 

They "Martyrs" didn't die during The Great Tribulation....it just started with the Seals in Rev 6:1.  The Martyrs Cried, "How LONG" does thou not judge. (See: Below).  And the "HOW LONG" is nonsensical if they were just killed.

 

(Revelation 6:9) "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

 

(Revelation 6:10-11) "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

 

 

They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

 

These are the 144,000 Jews sir. 

 

(Revelation 7:3-4) "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.  {4} And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

 

 

so there is actually a big problem with a doctrine that has zero scriptural support.

 

Preposterous!!  There's a METRIC TON of Scriptural Support I've provided here and other threads under this heading.

 

On the contrary verses like Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:7 indicate a FULL 3.5 years of persecution of the saints.

 

You continue to equivocate "Persecution" with The GREAT TRIBULATION.  Why is that?

 

What is the Purpose of The Great Tribulation sir?

 

 

This is not limited to the end of the tribulation, but encompasses the whole tribulation.

 

And again!  But here your Equivocating "tribulation" (Little "t") with...... I don't know what.

 

The Great Tribulation is 42 Months/1260 Days/ a Time, Times, and a Dividing of Time;  and begins with the Abomination of Desolation.  This "TRIBULATION" is sourced by the ALMIGHTY GOD.

[Montana Marv]

My views are clearly not the most popular, so i will not comment on most of this discussion. I will simply say this to the pretribers. Find me one scripture in the entire Bible that says that the rapture will take place before the tribulation. It cannot be done because there is not one. If you can find it thou i would certainly like to see it. I will eagerly await your scriptural evidence!

Alive

 

There is no Scripture that pin points any time for the Rapture.  Why I say?  Because Scripture says that God the Father is the only One who knows when the Rapture will happen.  If this is the case, The exact time is not revealed in Scripture.  Post trib will give tons of verses which support their view, Mid trib and Pre Wrath also give some support.  We as the Pre 70th Week group (Pre-trib) believe in an unknown time.  Once the 70th week begins the clock starts ticking down to the Second Coming, near to 7 years in the future.  Show me where this unknown time is then.  I cannot predict when the 70th Week of Daniel will start.  But I can predict within a degree of accuracy the timing of things which happen during this final week. We know when the mid-point is, when the A/D is set up; we know when the end is approaching, when the Battle of Armageddon is in process.  When would you like it to happen?  Must you go through this last week to prove your obedience to God.  The Christians over the past 2,000 years who have died were counted as Worthy and did not go through this last trial.  What makes us any different.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

 

The Bridegroom comes for His Bride, without any help from angels.  The Bride is composed of only those NT Believers indwelt by the HS.  That leaves out the OT saints, those of Israel, those tribulation saints, those who did not take the mark of the beast.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

I don't think so, Marv.

 

Check out this little snap shot of the wedding supper?

Matthew 8:10-12

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

Cheers

 

Thunder

 

The Kingdom was promised to Israel first, their unbelief is what has caused them to be thrown out.  The comparison is between the centurion with faith and Israel without faith.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv