PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[ARGOSY]

"to give you who are troubled rest with us" So at the revelation of Jesus Christ what follows will be anesin. (Did you ever take an anasin tablet?) The word is translatable as liberty (Acts 24:23 or as rest, relaxation, relief. Now is it your theory that the Thessalonians who received this message have not yet got their anesin (since however you take it, Christ has not made his "revelation" yet. So then on your theory 2 Thes 1 means that the Thessalonians who lived in Paul's day have had tribulation for 2000 years now; when they go to Heaven they got no rest, since they don't get rest until the 2nd Coming of Christ? Or could it be that what follows Christ's return is an enhancement of their freedom still more (anesin, anesis, Acts 24:23))? Or is it that they got rest long ago & that after Christ returns that rest continues?

My view on 2 Thess 2 is that they have had their relief, it came with their death. Paul believed that Jesus will come soon, even Paul expected to be alive when Jesus came. Paul was thus encouraging them with the promise of the second coming during their persecuted lives:

2 Thess 1:

5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

I'm sure there are many ways to look at this, but if you read this chapter from the view of a persecuted church being encouraged by a letter, its pretty obvious that Paul is encouraging them that the second coming will bring them relief from their physical persecutors.

[ARGOSY]

Arogsy

 

Here is a question of yours to me:  Regarding your view on Rev 9:20, do you seriously believe there are no believers on earth during the tribulation? The following scriptures confirm that there are in fact believers during the tribulation and so not everyone is evil during that period:  Dan 7:25-27 Rev 13:7 Rev 6: 11 Rev 20:4

 

The real statement I have asked is:  There are no true believers from just before the 5th Trumpet and on to the Second Coming.    I did not say there were no believers during this 70th Week.  From just before the 5th Trumpet, ALL have become demon and idol worshipers.  "The Rest of Mankind"  Yes, the 144,000 and the remnant from Israel and those from every tribe and nation are included in this group. Being sealed does not mean being perfect.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Why do you claim there are no believers from just before the 5th trumpet?

Argosy

 

They did not repent....  They did not stop....   After the 5th Trumpet "All Mankind: continued to do what that had done prior to the 5th Trumpet.  Worship demons and idols.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv.

I still don't understand, do you believe even the tribulation saints will have their rapture by the 5th trumpet? Matthew 24 says the elect will only be gathered at the second coming, so they certainly will be around for the WHOLE tribulation, right up until the appearance of Jesus:

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The bible says that the elect will be gathered at the second coming, and so surely this means some Christians will be here right until the final day of the Lord?

[ARGOSY]

Thunder

 

We Gentiles are the wild olive shoot which is grafted into the olive tree which Israel (being a natural branch)  has been pulled out of.  The Olive tree is Jesus Christ.   John 15:1 - "I am the true vine"  Jesus.  v.5 - I am the vine, you are the branches.

 

Israel is not the olive tree, they were branches of the olive tree.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

You are mixing metaphors. The olive tree is Israel (olives)

The vine is Jesus (grapes)

[ARGOSY]

the rapture is not an resurrection but rather a taken up, for at 1 thes.4 we which are alive are taken up, there is those that are asleep and those that are alive both taken up, which Rev, say the Bride is ready before the first resurrection! also the armies or warriors He brings back with Him to the battle are the tribulation saints and they reign with Him during the 1000 years  . Matthew 27 gives an account of many of the Saints was raised when the veil was ripped at His death, But the first resurrection according to scripture was that this event, nor would it be the pre-trib event

The rapture is a resurrection. Please read:

1 Corinthians 15:42-53

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man. 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

[ARGOSY]

ok once again I will from scripture show the Pre-Trib rapture. but really with all honesty know that it may not change anyone's mind.

Dan 12:1-2

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

KJV

                                                                          

Note here that two kinds of people are raised the saved (to everlasting life) the lost (to shame and everlasting contempt).

But at this separate event in scripture only those that are asleep in Christ are raised!!!! nothing about the lost being raised here.

1 Thess 4:13-18

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

KJV

now we can find the order of end times in the end of scripture, but before I show this let me say this, the Church will not be with Jesus when he comes back for the battle of the end time. for how many kings or warriors, ever take their wife(Church/Bride) to battle with them? now some will try and say that revelation is not wrote in chronological order, but when John says and this happens and then this happens that my friend is in chronologica order!!

Rev 19:6-8

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

KJV

the marriage( the bride is in her white linen) is come but the next scriptures will show this is before the first resurrection, how is the bride there before the first resurrection? duh! by the Pre-Trib rapture/taken up. Now these scripture are still not the time that Daniel spoke of, but is yet the end of the tribulation But before the thousand year reign:

Rev 20:1-6

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

KJV

Note here those that were beheaded and had refused to take the mark of the beast, this is the great tribulation saints the ones that endured. very much crushing the doctrine that none will be saved during the great tribulation( Rev 7:14

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

KJV)

then after the thousand year reign when have the second/last resurrection:

Rev 20:7-15

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

KJV

Now I need to pull one more nail out what man has put in the coffin as They have tried to kill truth from scripture Concerning the Pre-Trib rapture. some will ask if the pre-trib rapture is true bible doctrine, why was it not taught til so long into bible history? very good Question and one that one be adressed with another question. If we are indeed saved by grace through faith and not of works why was it not preached until much later even after the pre-trib rapture was taught. before that we needed the seven sacraments(works) in order to be saved.

Your point about the lost not being mentioned in 1 Thess 4 makes little sense. Are you aware that not one prophecy in the bible about the resurrection contains every second coming event? Some don't even mention Jesus, just like Daniel 12. Does that mean that Jesus wont even be at the second coming? Lol, of course not! So choosing a prophecy that does not mention the unrighteous as proof that its not a resurrection verse is not a conclusive argument at all. And anyway the 1 Thess 4 rapture verse you often refer to should be read in the context of its adjoining verses in chapter 5, its obviously a second coming event: 1 Thess 4:15 to 1 Thess 5:4

According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

As for your point about the first resurrection being after the marriage, these are prophecies repeatedly referring to the second coming/first resurrection. The order is not stricly sequential, Rev 19 and Rev 20 have some overlaps. For example, if this is strictly sequential, please explain why Satan is bound before even the beheadings from the beast: Rev 20:

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

[Montana Marv]

Argosy

 

Israel only believes when they see Christ at the Second Coming, not before (there are still the elect)

 

Zech 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.  They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him ........... 13:2 - On that day I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more.  A re-look at Rev 9: 20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons and idols.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rollinTHUNDER]

Argosy

 

Israel only believes when they see Christ at the Second Coming, not before (there are still the elect)

 

Zech 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.  They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him ........... 13:2 - On that day I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more. 

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Once again we disagree on what we see.

In my view, all the tribes of Israel still scattered in the world will mourn when they see the sign of the Son of man appear (rapture) in the clouds above Jerusalem. This will happen after the last trump is blown during Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets). Then they will look up and know their redemption draws near. By the way, this is the only feast that no one knows the day or hour when the new moon will appear. This feast begins after the first sliver of the new moon is sighted, which sometimes doesn't happen until the next day. Notice that only the tribes mourn, not all the nations, people and tongues.

Matthew 24:29-30

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

This is not the physical second coming. Instead, this sign will cause them to repent.

Zechariah 12:10

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

8 days later will be the Day of Atonement, and the sins of Israel will be forgiven.

Then 5 days after that, the feast of Tabernacles begins. This would fit the second coming, as the Lord will once again tabernacle with His people, a major celebration and rejoicing!

Rosh Hashanah = Tishri 1 & 2

Atonement = Tishri 10

Tabernacles = Tishri 15

Cheers

[Spock]

Why does it seems like the pre-tribbers are on the hot seat the most on this website?I am tired of it. 

Good observation Bo. I think it's because most of the books and media portray the rapture as pre trib, which kind of makes you the big boy on the block. And everyone wants to knock them down a peg.

[Spock]

Hey thunder,

What do you think that sign of the Son of Man in Heaven is, that will cause the tribes to mourn? A menorah or something distinctively Jewish?

[Spock]

By the way, I have enjoyed the dialogue here, especially between thunder and Enoch. You guys can also be pretty funny, besides being pretty sharp in your debates.

Also, hinds feet is coming on in his presentation skills. I guess it took a loss of a job to bring out the best in him. (Bad humor)

But the guy I love to really read in Marvelous Marv. I love his to the point no nonsense answers, even if I don't always agree, I love his style. I also love how he doesn't break up the quotes. This can get very tedious to read (hint to my dear friend, Enoch).

Anyhow, I appreciate all my brothers and sisters here. Thanks for sharing.

Spock out