PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Spock]

Brother Argosy,

Has anyone answered you about the 2Thess 2 passage you cited in your original post?

I too would like to know what Pre tribbers say about this?

Surely Enoch has replied, hasn't he? Let me know what number any post has replied. I am on my cell now. Harder to get to.

Thanks

[ARGOSY]

Brother Argosy,

Has anyone answered you about the 2Thess 2 passage you cited in your original post?

I too would like to know what Pre trivets say about this?

Surely Enoch has replied, hasn't he? Let me know what number any post has replied. I am on my cell now. Harder to get to.

Thanks

 

Enoch's focus has been to define the restrainer as the Holy Spirit, and so he has focussed on verses 3 onwards. I have repeatedly asked him to explain verse 1, defining who is gathered, and I have asked him to point to any post I may have missed. 

 

Up to now I'm not aware of an answer from pre-tribbers on who is gathered in verse 1, and why they are gathered only after the antichrist is revealed (during/after the tribulation)

[Enoch2021]

 

Brother Argosy,

Has anyone answered you about the 2Thess 2 passage you cited in your original post?

I too would like to know what Pre trivets say about this?

Surely Enoch has replied, hasn't he? Let me know what number any post has replied. I am on my cell now. Harder to get to.

Thanks

 

Enoch's focus has been to define the restrainer as the Holy Spirit, and so he has focussed on verses 3 onwards. I have repeatedly asked him to explain verse 1, defining who is gathered, and I have asked him to point to any post I may have missed. 

 

Up to now I'm not aware of an answer from pre-tribbers on who is gathered in verse 1, and why they are gathered only after the antichrist is revealed (during/after the tribulation)

 

 

 

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Unbelievable Argosy,

 

I've responded to you a number of times explaining;  when I find it    that I should even have to explain.....an OBVIOUS style that we all learned in third grade, that everyone on the planet uses and recognizes, that verse 4 onwards is a detailed explanation of the first 3 Passages.

 

That is to say, the first few Passages are an overview...... a Thesis Statement, then the details of that are outlined in the FOLLOWING PASSAGES!!!! 

 

***Special Note ****  The Holy Spirit also uses this Style  (a Thesis Statement or Overview.....THEN, details of that overview in subsequent passages throughout the Entire Bible.  Start with (Genesis 1:1) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."  Then GOD details that Thesis Statement in the following passages.

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,  {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

 

 

See this is a Thesis Statement     :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:  an overview.   Special Note #2:  See the Semi-Colon after "perdition" that means the thought is continuing.  Even without the Semi-Colon, it's quite obvious the thought is continuing by the substance of the passages below 

 

 

{4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

 

See the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" in (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and "THAT WICKED" in (2 Thessalonians 2:8)  ARE ALL THE SAME PERSONAGE!!!

 

 

Please for the Love of everything Sacred and Holy, tell me that you see this?

[Spock]

Ok, let me give you my interpretation of this passage. Here is the passage again in 2 Thess 2:

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Spock's musings:

The gathering='rapture

This cannot occur until three things happen:

A. Departure (apostasy or falling away, depending on translation)

B. The man of lawlessness (ac) is revealed

C. The abomination of desolation takes place

I myself still am pondering what the implication of this passage is, but for now, this is what I have. This to me goes along with my belief that Matthew 24:29-31 is the rapture, which for now, I am calling this the general, main rapture of the majority of the believers (not first fruits rapture).

I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I would like to hear back. Thanks.

[Enoch2021]

Ok, let me give you my interpretation of this passage. Here is the passage again in 2 Thess 2:

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Spock's musings:

The gathering='rapture

This cannot occur until three things happen:

A. Departure (apostasy or falling away, depending on translation)

B. The man of lawlessness (ac) is revealed

C. The abomination of desolation takes place

I myself still am pondering what the implication of this passage is, but for now, this is what I have. This to me goes along with my belief that Matthew 24:29-31 is the rapture, which for now, I am calling this the general, main rapture of the majority of the believers (not first fruits rapture).

I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I would like to hear back. Thanks.

 

 

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OK for the 30th time.....

 

 

Spock ahhhh first,  shouldn't you take a look @ the passages following  2 Thess 2 to see if any more detail is given?  Like verses 5-8.....

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:5-8) "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

 

The "he" is the Holy Spirit....

 

For him ("That Wicked") to be revealed, the "RESTRAINER" must be removed!! The "Restrainer" is The Holy Spirit and was given to the Body of Christ after Christ left.

 

(John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

 

(John 14:26) " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

 

(John 16:7) " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

 

 

Jesus had to Leave for the "Comforter to Come".  Who did he give it to......"The Church", FOREVER!  It appears from John, that they (Jesus and the Comforter) can't be in the same place @ once.

 

There is absolutely NO WAY the Comforter/RESTRAINER LEAVES THE CHURCH......HE'S THE EMBODIMENT OF IT!!!!!!

GOD alone "Restrains" evil, PERIOD, End of Story.  Read JOB for a full demonstration of that very fact.

 

This to me goes along with my belief that Matthew 24:29-31 is the rapture,

 

   This is The Rapture to you.....

 

(Matthew 24:29-31) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  {30}  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  {31}  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

 

Besides the most obvious with; "Immediately after the tribulation....."

 

I have a question.  How in the World is Matthew talking about "The Church" when it was HID from the beginning of the WORLD UNTIL it was Paul's honor and pleasure to proclaim it??

 

 

(Ephesians 3:8-9) "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;  {9} And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"

 

(Colossians 1:26-27) "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  {27} To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

 

 

I can't wait for the answer......???

[Spock]

Enoch2021,

Ok, so you believe the "he" that restrains is the Holy Spirit.

I'm not so sure. It could be a few other possibilities:

A. Michael, the archangel

B. The faithful church (first fruits harvest)

I know pre trib people want it to be HS, but you can't be dogmatic, or at least you shouldn't be.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that according to this passage, several things have to happen BEFORE the rapture (Matt 24:29-31)

[Enoch2021]

Enoch2021,

Ok, so you believe the "he" that restrains is the Holy Spirit.

I'm not so sure. It could be a few other possibilities:

A. Michael, the archangel

B. The faithful church (first fruits harvest)

I know pre trib people want it to be HS, but you can't be dogmatic, or at least you shouldn't be.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that according to this passage, several things have to happen BEFORE the rapture (Matt 24:29-31)

 

 

=============================================================

 

 

Ok, so you believe the "he" that restrains is the Holy Spirit.

 

I'm not so sure. It could be a few other possibilities:

 

A. Michael, the archangel

B. The faithful church (first fruits harvest)

 

 

Yes, it is.  And I can be Dogmatic.

 

First you have to differentiate between the Church and Israel.  Both have different Origins and Different Destiny's

 

2nd:  Michael is a Military Commander/Warrior always in Defense or Fighting for Israel......

 

(Daniel 12:1) "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

 

Who's "Thy people"??   Daniels People.....Israel.

 

Please show me one Scripture where Michael and "The Church" are mentioned together?

 

 

B. The faithful church...it's just "The Church" and Yes the Holy Spirit was given to them after Christ Left.....The HOLY SPIRIT is the embodiment of it!

 

First Fruits are Jewish......Has absolutely nothing to do with "The Church".

 

 

Nevertheless, it seems to me that according to this passage, several things have to happen BEFORE the rapture (Matt 24:29-31)

 

Well as I already have shown you, and which you failed to answer the question concerning "The Church" being HID, this isn't The Rapture.

 

So everything downstream from your fallacious presupposition.....is fallacious. And your "several things have to happen first" violates about 30 Scriptures which speaks to The Doctrine of Imminence.

[Love is alive]

 

My views are clearly not the most popular, so i will not comment on most of this discussion. I will simply say this to the pretribers. Find me one scripture in the entire Bible that says that the rapture will take place before the tribulation. It cannot be done because there is not one. If you can find it thou i would certainly like to see it. I will eagerly await your scriptural evidence!

Find me one scripture that says what will definately happen in the end times.Mid,post,no trib.I will eagerly await your scriptural evidence.

 

what about the 11th and 12th chapters of Daniel they do describe in detail the sequence of the end. No scriptures do not give a time or day that the rapture will occur but it does give a sequence, in that I mean the order in which they do happen.

[Love is alive]

 

My views are clearly not the most popular, so i will not comment on most of this discussion. I will simply say this to the pretribers. Find me one scripture in the entire Bible that says that the rapture will take place before the tribulation. It cannot be done because there is not one. If you can find it thou i would certainly like to see it. I will eagerly await your scriptural evidence!

 

=======================================================================

 

My views are clearly not the most popular,

 

This isn't a "Popularity" or "Consensus" rules the day subject; it's.........WHAT DOES GOD SAY.

 

 

say this to the pretribers. Find me one scripture in the entire Bible that says that the rapture will take place before the tribulation.

 

First, don't equivocate "tribulation" (Little "t") with the Great Tribulation.  The Great Tribulation is GOD'S WRATH and is sourced by GOD.....

 

(Matthew 24:21) " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

And....

 

(Romans 2:5) "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;"

 

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

(Revelation 14:10) "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

 

 

**(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

 

Paul is speaking concerning "The Church" here.

 

 

See it?

 

What about the 11th and 12th chapters of Daniel? They do tell us the order or the sequence of the end days. No, they do not tell a time or day or an hour none of the scripture does and you are correct that it does say only the Father knows the time. However, Daniel does tell us the order of the things to come.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

Brother Argosy,

Has anyone answered you about the 2Thess 2 passage you cited in your original post?

I too would like to know what Pre trivets say about this?

Surely Enoch has replied, hasn't he? Let me know what number any post has replied. I am on my cell now. Harder to get to.

Thanks

 

Enoch's focus has been to define the restrainer as the Holy Spirit, and so he has focussed on verses 3 onwards. I have repeatedly asked him to explain verse 1, defining who is gathered, and I have asked him to point to any post I may have missed. 

 

Up to now I'm not aware of an answer from pre-tribbers on who is gathered in verse 1, and why they are gathered only after the antichrist is revealed (during/after the tribulation)

 

 

 

=====================================================================

 

Unbelievable Argosy,

 

I've responded to you a number of times explaining;  when I find it    that I should even have to explain.....an OBVIOUS style that we all learned in third grade, that everyone on the planet uses and recognizes, that verse 4 onwards is a detailed explanation of the first 3 Passages.

 

That is to say, the first few Passages are an overview...... a Thesis Statement, then the details of that are outlined in the FOLLOWING PASSAGES!!!! 

 

***Special Note ****  The Holy Spirit also uses this Style  (a Thesis Statement or Overview.....THEN, details of that overview in subsequent passages throughout the Entire Bible.  Start with (Genesis 1:1) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."  Then GOD details that Thesis Statement in the following passages.

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,  {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

 

 

See this is a Thesis Statement     :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:  an overview.   Special Note #2:  See the Semi-Colon after "perdition" that means the thought is continuing.  Even without the Semi-Colon, it's quite obvious the thought is continuing by the substance of the passages below 

 

 

{4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

 

See the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" in (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and "THAT WICKED" in (2 Thessalonians 2:8)  ARE ALL THE SAME PERSONAGE!!!

 

 

Please for the Love of everything Sacred and Holy, tell me that you see this?

 

 

I do understand all that you are saying, but once again I'm telling you that your view of the restrainer completely contradict verse 1-3 that states that our gathering occurs after the revealing of the antichrist.  Even if you call the first few verses "an overview",  this overview contradicts your view on the restrainer if the "gathering" is referring to the rapture. All I'm asking is what you think this "gathering" is in verse 1.   What do you think this gathering is: 2 Thess 2:1-3

 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our GATHERING together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for IT WILL NOT COME unless the apostasy comes first, and THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, the son of destruction