THE RESTRAINER

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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You really need to start listening to God and not what religion has been teaching you.

 

Do me a favor and keep your fallacious unsupported opinions and advice to yourself.  Support your views either Scripturally and/or Logically and let them stand on their own merit.

 

 

I also beleived what you beleived

 

It's irrelevant and you don't know me or my background sir

 

 

But you havnt shown me anything solid that shows my context as incorrect.

 

The record is there and is quite obvious

[Matt36]

Im sorry if i have offended you, No offence intended bro, just called it as i saw it. If it upsets you that much ill stop talking about if ok. Cheers Enoch

Edited April 20, 2014 by Matt36

[Guest]

I'm sorry if i have offended you, No offence intended bro, just called it as i saw it. If it upsets you that much ill stop talking about if ok....

 

~

 

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. Proverbs 27:17

[Enoch2021]

I think this makes more sense

 

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (ANTICHRIST) is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 

 

 

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him (the DAY of CHRIST) back, so that he (CHRIST) may be revealed at the proper time. For the SECRET power of lawlessness (SATAN) is already at work; but the one (Christ) who now holds IT (the secret/revealing) back will continue to do so till he (SATAN) is taken out of the way/ Stand out like a sore thumb. And then the lawless one (ANTICHRIST) will be revealed ( Because he stands out like a sore thumb), whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

The restrainer is indeed Satan and all those tribulation events that needs to happen are standing in the way of the day of Jesus.

 

This can be proved by sound exegesis if you would like me to share the techniques I used and evidence.

 

So I am in agreement with argosy.

 

However some tweeking needed to be done to drive his message home. 

 

However I do not agree that Satan still has access to heaven.

 

 

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Here we go again.

 

1st.  When you post Scripture, Be Sure to Post (Book, Chapter, and Verse) see TOS above.  Something Like this....

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:5-8) "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

 

2nd.  See multiple posts in this thread that refute your "sound" exegesis.

 

3rd.  What Bible are you Reading?

[firestormx]

Enoch 2021

Im sorry discussing and finding the truth to scripture is such a hassle for you, but i guess thats the elect mentality of a despensationalists. no?

Your new here it seems so I figured I would give you a heads up, before your post gets reported. The above line is directed directly at the person. This is against the rules here or the TOS terms of service. Try to keep it on the subject. Discuss the subject not the poster. otherwise a mod will intervene.

God bless you

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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oh my

 

Im sorry discussing and finding the truth to scripture is such a hassle for you, but i guess thats the elect mentality of a despensationalists. no?

 

Please keep your Conjured Baseless Unsupported "guesses" concerning me personally, to yourself.

 

 

The word restrainer (king jimmy version)

 

This is speaking volumes

 

 

I actually believe you don’t know...so I’ll help

 

Key Statement..."I Believe".  So you make conclusions off basically Zero Data both Qualitatively and Quantitatively ?? ..... Which are basically "guesses'.  Ok, lets put you to the test....What's my favorite color?

 

If I need your help, I'll ask you.

 

 

The words must be given their normal meaning whenever the context allows it. In at least two crucial points in verses 6 and 7 of 2 Thessalonians 2:5-8, a Greek word was not given its normal meaning in the English translations

 

I don't do "translations".  Show WITH SUPPORT....  it's "not normal meaning" in the AKJV. 

 

 

Now since we on the same page inorder to identify who the restrainer is, There are 11 facts we know about the text.(1) The word katechon ("restrainer") is a present participle in verses 6 and 7, and both refer to the same reality. (2) Judging from his statement, "and now you know what is holding him back," Paul's readers must have already known what the katechon is. (3) This concept is apparently found nowhere else in Greek eschatological writings. (4) The meaning of katechon must be understood from its normal usage. (5) The participle in both verses has no compliment; that is, no direct object to complete the thought. We must determine for ourselves what that direct object is.(6) The restraining force is presently active (at least when Paul wrote the letter, cf.v.7).(7) The restrainer has a temporal limitation on its present activity (cf.v.7, "until..."). (8) The restrainer somehow stands in relationship to the lawless one. (9) The mystery of lawlessness is active in at least a part of the same period as the katechon.(10) After this letter, the concept of the restrainer apparently disappears from Christian teaching.(11) An individual is involved

 

 

You've basically said nothing here and I could care less concerning "katechon" that you've gotten from corrupt manuscripts.

 

All you had to say was this...."The restrainer somehow stands in relationship to the lawless one." to save yourself some typing.  And brings us back to the start point.

 

 

Those things Paul is talking about are the facts concerning the events preceding the parousia of the Messiah which Paul had just mentioned in verse 3 Or do you disagree? look at that im a poet and i dont even know it

 

Paul is writing to the Thessalonians in response to a forgery that was circulating because that had either thought they missed "The Rapture" or were Mis-Taught.  With special emphasis on False Teachers.

 

All that you have done is ASSUMED that the man of lawlessness is being held back by the restrainer. You assumed it, you following?

 

All I have done is used Common Sense by the clear reading of the Text (AKJV) in English and in Greek.  satan "restraining" or "holding himself back" is not only Preposterous Conceptually.....it puts him in charge.  Which is stupefying just from a cursory review of Scripture and more Specifically the Book of JOB.

 

 

So,"the coming of Christ and our gathering to him" are being restrained.

 

You have got to be kidding me?  This whole post for this nonsense?  Who's Restraining Christ??  For the Record?

 

 

Thus, verse 6 should be understood to say, "and now you know what is holding him (Christ) back,"

 

Go ahead?  Hopefully it's a Noun and not a Present Active Participle Verb

 

I must warn you....changing of The WORD of GOD is not a very good thing sir. 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

When "he" is taken out of the Way......-------->THEN <------- "that wicked" be revealed.

 

The "he" is the Antithesis of "that wicked".  Pretty Clear Cut.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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You do realise I'm using slang? Jimmy is slang for James?

 

Call it what you want, it's disrespectful.  Use slang with your buddies on the street and not with complete strangers when discussing GOD'S WORD.

 

(Psalms 138:2) "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

 

 

So you admit to not using sound exegesis...your taking the english language and making it surperior over the original language of the text....You know Paul never spoke English?

 

So if I say, "I'm going fishing be back in a few hours" you hear,  "Amino Acids can come in two forms; Left handed and Right handed".  ??

 

Well no you not, you just said I dont do translations...

 

I was referring to Your "use" of  "translations" with Your context.  I only use the Authorized King James....most others are provably corrupted.

 

 

You not using common sense if you care less by the clear reading of the original texts and one has to conclude you are lying

 

You have copies of the original text?  Just because you don't understand something doesn't make the other person a Liar.  I've admonished you about this little "Play Ground Game" once before.  This is the second admonishment.

 

The common sense you are using is based on your own idea and your own concept and is not based on biblical language or the biblical context of the text

 

How so?

 

Answer these 4 questions for me

 

1)Why did Paul write the Thessalonians two letters?

2)Why were they confused? Your hint is with the false teachers

3)Why did Paul say "Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

4) What did Paul tell them what they already knew?

 

So you answer a question with 4 Questions??

 

I've already told you, go review the previous post as to, "why".

 

 

Please prove where I changed the words of God or even added to it?

 

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him (the DAY of CHRIST) back, so that he (CHRIST) may be revealed at the proper time. For the SECRET power of lawlessness (SATAN) is already at work; but the one (Christ) who now holds IT (the secret/revealing) back will continue to do so till he (SATAN) is taken out of the way/ Stand out like a sore thumb. And then the lawless one (ANTICHRIST) will be revealed ( Because he stands out like a sore thumb), whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

(Your comments) In BOLD.  And it's probably why you didn't post (Book, Chapter and Verse).  Saying what you think is one thing....... writing or superimposing it in the text of Scripture is quite another and the LITERAL DEFINITION of changing GOD'S WORD.

 

Also, let me ask you:  You said....

 

"but the one (Christ) who now holds IT back.....May be Revealed"

 

then....

 

"so that he (CHRIST) may be revealed"

 

Christ revealed!!! 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

Who's being "Revealed" ??

 

 

Making the Restrainer the lawless one and the restrained Jesus Christ,

 

Read what you said....R e a l S l o w!!  You're saying ac is "restraining".........Jesus Christ!!

 

This is not only a Train Wreck Theologically/Doctrinally (so many levels).  Common Sense is left wanting!! ..... This is Tantamount to little Bo Peep "restraining" "The Ruler of The Universe"

 

 

What about all the varieties of the Bible in English? are they not changing the Word of God? or is the concept still the same?

 

Most come from corrupt codices by the Gnostics from Alexandria (That changed the WORD OF GOD) then propagated by Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort....(affectionately known as Westcott and Hort).  The Fathers of all New Bible Translations.

 

Just a taste...

 

In a Letter to the Archbishop of Canterbury:

Westcott wrote,

"No one now I suppose hold that the first three chapters pf Genesis, for example, give a literal history- I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did".

Life of Westcott, Vol 1, p. 69

 

Hort April 3 1860,

"But the book which has engaged me the most is Darwin.  What may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with.  My feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable".

F.J Hort, Life of Hort, Vol 1, p. 146

 

Hort said,

"I am now inclined to think that no such state as Eden (I mean the popular notion) ever existed, and that Adam's fall in no degree differed from the fall of each of his descendants".

F.J.A Hort, Life of Hort, Vol 1, p. 78

 

Westcott wrote,

"Christians are themselves in a true sense 'Christs'".

B.F. Westcott, The Epistle to the Hebrews, p. 49

 

Westcott wrote,

" The concept is that bringing Christ to the full perfection of his humanity which carries with it the completeness of power and dignity.  This perfection was not reached until after death".

B.F. Westcott, The Epistles of St. John, p. 73

 

Hort, Letter to F.D. Maurice

"Finally St. Paul's mysterious words 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins'- I have labored so utterly to apprehend in any measure what this idea is, that I hope you will deepen and widen the hints you have already given.  I am quite conscious that I have given but a few distinct objections to the common belief, (redemption through the blood of the Lamb) in what I have written, but so indeed it must be; language cannot accurately define the twinge of shrinking horror which mixes with my thought when I hear the popular notion asserted".

Arthur Fenton Hort, Life and Letters of F. J. A. Vol 1, p. 122

 

 

R Ya Getting the Picture??  Or would you like me to post a small Library?   This one says it all (From their own mouth)...

 

Westcott wrote,

"How certainly I should have been claimed a heretic".

B.F. Life of Westcott, Vol 1, p. 233

 

 

And, all that :rolleyes: is just "The Tip of The Ice Berg" !!

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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So your belief is that only when a certain individual is removed will the lawless one be revealed?

 

Yes, the "Certain Individual" is The Holy Spirit.  The One that was given to The Church after Christ's Ascension, and indwells them FOREVER.  When "he's" taken out of the way, that means "The Church" is taken out of the way.

 

TAKEN

 

The mistranslation of the phrase "taken out of the way" is a major reason for the confusion about the restrainer's identity.

"taken” in greek means something the other way round ginomai

 

You have got to be kidding me with this.  You sure Love Verbs!! In this specific case, middle voice from a primary verb.   It's not mistranslated its correct.

 

"Taken"  and "Taken out of the way" are not Equals sir.  Mainly because "out of the way" are different words than "Taken".

 

Strong's # 1096: ginomai. a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb

 

1. to become

2. to arise

 

Lets have a look....(2 Thessalonians 2:7) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

 

So "he" will be taken (ARISE) out of the way.  Thanks 

 

More on "ginomai" below when you stumble through "apostasia"

 

 

Why is Satan trying to hold back the day of our Lord?

 

Unbelievable.  (See: Theological TranWreck et al in previous post, here):

 

OUT OF THE WAY

ek mesou (ek mesou), translated "out of the way" in verse 7 is defined by the same Greek dictionary cited above as "from, from among, out of the midst" (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, London: United Bible Societies, 1971, p.114).

The lawless one will "appear from the midst", that is, he will come out

 

ek = "out of" 

mesos= "the way"

 

Not "appear in the midst" lol

 

 

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work (Lawless one): only he who now letteth will let (the day of the Lord as his time is short), until he be taken out of the way (until the lawless one appears)...and then shall that wicked be revealed ( to the world at the abomination)

 

Is this not what Revelations says?

 

 

"until he be taken out of the way (until the lawless one appears)"

 

So "taken out of the way"  = "appears" to you?

 

Does  Black = White  to you?

 

 

 

Here Mr. Greek, have a shot @ this (Note your "ginomai" below)...

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:3) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

 

a Falling Away = Apostasia

 

Apostasia (greek)

 

Summary of the ways in which Apostasia signifies Rapture in 2 Thess 2.

  

1.   The parallel between verse 3 and 7-8, showing the antichrist is revealed after the rapture.

2.   Words With Similar Definitions: methormizô, remove from one anchorage to another

3.   Words With Similar Definitions: metex-anistamai, Pass., move from one place to another

4.   Apostasia is translated as "Dissecto" in Latin, which has a meaning of a "spacial departure".

5.   Apostasia is translated as "departure" in many Bibles.

6 .  Liddell and Scott Dictionary authors note Apostasia is translated as "spacial departure" in one case in the 6th century.

7.   metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to fall away"

8.   metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to depart"

9.   metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both signify "change" as the rapture is a change.

10. metathesis, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both (in the word it's derrived from, aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".

11. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo (rapture in 1 Thess 4:17), can both mean "to take"

12. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to seize"

13. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to snatch away"

14. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, also carries the meaning "to marry, take a wife" which is a strong rapture parallel

15. Apostasia and harpazo both carry connotations of violence.  Apostaisia a violent revolt & rebellion, and harpazo "to seize by force" John 6:15

16 .Harpazo, like metathesis and aphistemi--root of apostasia, mean "to remove"

17. Harpazo is used in a peculiar way to signify "falling away from the faith" in Matthew 13:19, which is the main definition of apostasia.

18. The play on words of "stand in, present" enistemi and "stand off, absent" aphistemi, shows that apostasia, which comes from aphistemi, signifies the rapture, when people will be "absent".

19. ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, means "be married to" and the rapture is the marriage.

20. ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, means "to arise" and the rapture is when we rise up.

21. ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, signifies "of miracles" and the rapture will be a miracle.

22. Apostasia, as rapture, is fully consistent with apostasia as religious rebellion, and it is not an either/or definition or option, the word means both.

23. Those who say the pre trib rapture is false doctrine (an apostasy) unwittingly confirm that apostasia signifies rapture.

 

Source: http://www.bibleprophesy.org/apostasia.htm

[Willa]

Since only the Father knows the time of Christ's return, it seems to me that He is in control of that and not satan. For 2 Peter 3 has bearing on this, saying that He is longsuffering toward us, not wanting any to perish and that is why it seems He is slow.

The subject of 2 Thess. 2 certainly is the arrival of the Lord Jesus and our gathering to Him. Try outlining the passage.

The apostacy must come first

The man of sin must first be revealed

It does not make sense that satan will be removed because the lawless one derives his power from satan. v 9. Prior to his enthroning himself as God in the Temple, the lawless one is deceiving the world with signs and wonders among those who are perishing. These did not love the Truth soas to be saved

However, these events must occur prior the the appearing of Christ.

I do see that the removal of the church, whether by snatching up or by martyrdom, is that which restrains.. Only the Power of God can restrain evil and only God's plans will succede. It is so important that we let our lights shine and that we be salt. Satan was overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testamony. So this had to be removed since the church certainly seems to be restraining at that point. I believe God snatched away His church because she is not destined to endure the bowls of God's wrath that were poured out on mankind in the 2nd 3 1/2 years.

The hardended hearts of those that did not repent came after the wars, starvation and pestilence of the first 3 1/2 years, when the bowls of Gods wrath were poured out during the last 3 1/2 years. Prior to that time many appeared in heaven, a great number out of all peoples, who came out of the great trib. of the first 3 1/2 years in Rev. 7. That was also when the 144000 Jews were sealed, a remnant that will also survive. But it is hinted than many Jews also believed when the 2 witnesses came back from the dead and the antichrist set himself up as God.

Blessings,

Willa

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Just fyi.....when you see a little red squiggly line under a word, it means it's misspelled.

 

i must admit im enjoying seeing how your trying to wrap your head round this.

 

The Thread bears the Record.  Your back-handed little "slights" are speaking volumes.  They most often occur when someone is holding deuce seven off suit and they've just been called.  Instead of heading to the rail quietly with their integrity intact and considering the factors that led to their demise and maybe to learn something as to not repeat the same scenario in the future, that have to murmur to somehow shift the attention and accountability for their overplayed hand.  Unbeknownst to them @ the time, it has the opposite effect....and everybody knows it.

 

 

Let me understand this, your telling me that (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, London: United Bible Societies, 1971, p.37) is incorrect in there translations?

 

No, they are correct.  Your stumbling through the clear interpretation of it to fit your "a priori" adherence's is Incorrect.

 

 

That you who has no degree in Greek language no degree in biblical text studies knows better?

 

How do you know.....Special Mind Powers?  Let's put those powers to the Test.....What's my Favorite Color?

 

 

Let me get this straight, Satan is not trying to kill the jews? satan was never trying to kill Jesus when he was born, satan never tried to tempt Jesus? Theres never been any form in anyway of Satan trying to derial Gods plan?  Satan has never tried to hold back the day of our lord? There is no form of persecution on the jews?

Satan is not trying to prevent the day of our lord for his judgement to be thrown in the lake of fire? this is just a figment of my imagination? or how was it a trainwreck theology according to you?

 

All this is in support of, your statement...."Making the Restrainer the lawless one and the restrained Jesus Christ"  ?? 

 

Specifically, now..... This is a Trainwreck, Non-Sequitur

 

 

For example you claim your bible is the most authorativie of them all

 

An Air-Tight SUPPORTED "Claim" to be more precise.

 

 

you just so happen to choose the one that forces your idea of a rapture

 

Are you saying I chose the Authorized King James Bible to support my Rapture Thesis? 

 

You're gonna have to correctly guess "My Favorite Color" (See: above) to offer some Veracity to your divination's.

 

 

I think we are done here.  The Record of this Thread Speaks for itself.

 

 

Hope you find the Truth