Post Tribbers - Please explain

[OneLight]

Please remember that when you reply to someone, it is not necessary to quote everything they say.  By doing so, it is very hard, and time consuming, to become involved, or even read, for that matter.  If what you are replying to is the very last statement in a line of quotes, remove the previous quotes and just use the one you are replying to.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Sorry this is the last one for you, I overlooked it.

 

I guess we havnt spoken alot about the doctrine of imminence, which in my view is exactly that, church doctrine.

 

It's mainly just common sense.

 

 

Time to take a look at this because i believe its a fallacy and is NOT of God.

 

"I Believe" Alert.  It's a Fallacy?  Which One and connect, Please.

 

However, lets take a look at what the bible actually says.

 

Lets set out what the pre trib doctrine actually teaches first.

 

My goodness

 

 

According to popular belief the pre tribbers arrive at their conclusion by quoting Matt24

 

According to "Popular Belief", eh?  Wrong, not the Matthew Passage you made reference to. We arrive there by:

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

Along with: (Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; 1 Thess 1:10; 4:18, 5:6, Rev 22:20) to name a few.

 

 

The Doctrine of Imminence:  The Next Expectation; No Preceding Event.  That is to say, No Scriptural Landmark to set your watch from to know when is The Second Coming. 

 

Where do we find such an Event in Scripture that we could set our watches?  ..... There are 2 Events:

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

Daniel's 70th Week:  See or Hear ac "Confirming a Covenant" ( Mark you Calendars and Set Your Watches.......7 Years)

 

Abomination of Desolation: (Mark Your Calendars and Set your Watches.....3 1/2 Years)

 

Time Frames in association with (Abomination of Desolation):  Time, Times, and a Dividing of Time: Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; 1260 Days: Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6, Rev 12:14; 42 Months: Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5

 

 

something they at the same time attribute as being written the the jews and is NOT relevant to the church.

 

This is a Strawman.  And I have already admonished you Once.....which speaks volumes.

 

Matt24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

 

 

Matthew 24: 29-31 have nothing to do Whatsoever, with the Doctrine of Imminence or The Rapture or The Church.

 

Matthew 24:43: Speaks directly to the Doctrine of Imminence.  Anything else?  Do you have some kind of a point?

 

Also  .....Immediately after the tribulation, should have given you a clue that you are Completely out of Context for the Subject.

 

 

But what people fail to realise is that Jesus is still talking about a post tribulation gathering.     (Matthew 24: 29-31 and 43)

 

Are you implying a "Rapture" Here?   A Post Trib Rapture?  For the past week and up until 3 hours ago you've been Pre-Wrath Rapture......Remember your Fallacious "Tribulation Saint" Rapture of Rev 7:14 ??

 

Also, Can you tell me How "The Church" (The Chaste Virgin Bride of Christ, 2 Cor 11:2) attends the Marriage Supper in Heaven and Follows Christ arrayed in fine linen, white and clean @ HIS Second Coming When she is still in Great Tribulation??.....

 

 

(Revelation 19:7-16) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

Please, the floor is yours........?

 

 

So what is it we are supposed to watch for? (If your a pre trib, there is nothing you can watch for if you believe in imminence as no signs can be given otherwise it cant be imminent right)

 

My Goodness.  Yes no "timed" signs or event as spoken above.  By Proxy of this convoluted statement....there is something to watch for if your Post Trib right?  Therefore you know the Time lol.

 

In which you Unwittingly just self-imploded.....again.

 

Just because he admonishes the Thessalonians or anyone else to be "Watchful" doesn't Preclude the Fact that You still don't know the Time or the Doctrine of Imminence.

 

Can you see that?

 

 

Paul says in ! Thess 5:2 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 

Absolutely Unbelievable.....

 

The "thief in the night" (Simile) is Paul describing what Christ's Second Coming would be like to........................."unbelievers"

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:2-4) "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  {3} For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  {4} But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

 

Paul is using a Simple Compare and Contrast?  The "they" are the "unbelievers".  The "But ye, brethren" are the Thessalonians.

 

It's gonna come on the "unbelievers" like a thief in the night, because......they are not following Christ or Watching or Studying The WORD!!

 

ps. this is speaking to the Second Coming not "The Rapture".

 

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

 

When the sky is darkened and the moon appears as blood. That is THE SIGN of his coming and that it is even at the door.

 

Yes and......?   Relevance?  It's Right here.....

 

(Revelation 6:12) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"

 

Unfortunately (for your position...for what 30th/40th time?)  This Occurs with the opening of the 6th Seal......the Wrath of the Lamb.  Which is well past Pre-Trib sir.

 

The jews return to the Land. How can we have the events of revelation with no jews in the Land. Without Jews in the Land there is simply NO ISRAEL.

 

Now the doctrine of imminence alludes that the rapture is imminent all the way from the time Christs assention  till he actually returns.

 

How then could the doctrine of imminence be an effectual doctrine if prior to 1948 when Israel once again arrived on the scene and jews flocked from all over the planet to their homeland, how could he come if Israel wasnt there???

 

 

There is rather clumsy....and I've already spoke to you concerning this issue, but you just continue down the same path.

 

The Doctrine of Imminence says that, There is no event That You Can Set Your Watch To In Preparation or Knowing when Christ will Return.

 

The only "TIMED" events alluding to Christ's Second Coming in Scripture is Daniel's 70th Week (And the Timing associated cited above).

 

Of course the Diaspora needed to end, obviously ("Watching", eh?).  Can you show me anywhere in Ezekiel where this event is directly connected to Specific "Timing" for the Second Coming Of Christ?

 

This has No Bearing Whatsoever with Doctrine of Imminence. 

 

In Fact, If the Temple was Erected tomorrow it still would have Absolutely No Bearing Whatsoever on the Doctrine of Imminence because it could sit there for Thousands of Years...... you need a Benchmark Scripture Event related to the Second Coming of Christ to Start Timing. 

 

You have only 2 in Scripture:  Confirming the Covenant or Abomination of Desolation

 

 

Anything further?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

when he (the ac) is known as Mister Big Mouth in a Ton of Scriptures

 

Enoch2021 - could you list these 'Ton of Scriptures' please? Thank you

 

 

 

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(Revelation 13:5) "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

 

(Revelation 13:6) "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven."

 

(Daniel 7:8) "I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

 

(Daniel 7:20) "And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows."

 

(Daniel 11:36) "And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done."

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:4) "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

 

 

This should do, I think there's another 5-8 more but I didn't mark them....I got the picture and it was a bit redundant.

[Pamelasv]

Well I just came in here to ask for pre-tribbers to please explain. Did not read all 185 posts yet, but will scroll thru at some point yet. I am reading Thessalonians 2:1-4 and the Apostle Paul istelling them not to be quickly shaken from their composure saying the Lord has already come. He says the apostasy has to come first and the man who (antichrist) takes his seat in the temple of God. Ok.......That of course could still mean mid trib, but pretrib? Unfortunately I can't start a new post.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Pamelasv

[Spock]

Well I just came in here to ask for pre-tribbers to please explain. Did not read all 185 posts yet, but will scroll thru at some point yet. I am reading Thessalonians 2:1-4 and the Apostle Paul istelling them not to be quickly shaken from their composure saying the Lord has already come. He says the apostasy has to come first and the man who (antichrist) takes his seat in the temple of God. Ok.......That of course could still mean mid trib, but pretrib? Unfortunately I can't start a new post.

Greetings friend.

I'm not a pre tribbie but I think they would say this -

1. The apostasy or departure or falling away- refers to the church losing its love for holiness. They would then say, this will occur before the rapture.

2. As for the "revealing of the antichrist"- I think they would vehemently deny this means the time when the ac does his abomination of desolation thing (ac takes his seat in the temple). Obviously they would not agree that the abomination has to precede the rapture because you are right, this would put the rapture in the great tribulation. So, what they would say is something like this - this probably means when the man of lawlessness is revealed first - comes onto the scene- then the rapture could take place. Not when going to the temple.

Here is the 2 thess. 2 passage again:

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Disclaimer: I didn't say nor do I believe either of those two points so don't grit your teeth at me. I'm just the messenger.

Spock doing pro bono work for the pre tribbies

[Enoch2021]

Well I just came in here to ask for pre-tribbers to please explain. Did not read all 185 posts yet, but will scroll thru at some point yet. I am reading Thessalonians 2:1-4 and the Apostle Paul istelling them not to be quickly shaken from their composure saying the Lord has already come. He says the apostasy has to come first and the man who (antichrist) takes his seat in the temple of God. Ok.......That of course could still mean mid trib, but pretrib? Unfortunately I can't start a new post.

 

 

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Hey Pamelasv Welcome 

 

It'll take you some time to scroll through those....Spock is kinda Long-Winded 

 

First, what does Falling Away = Apostasia Mean......

 

Summary of the ways in which Apostasia signifies Rapture in 2 Thess 2.

 

1.   The parallel between verse 3 and 7-8, showing the antichrist is revealed after the rapture.

2.   Words With Similar Definitions: methormizô, remove from one anchorage to another

3.   Words With Similar Definitions: metex-anistamai, Pass., move from one place to another

4.   Apostasia is translated as "Dissecto" in Latin, which has a meaning of a "spacial departure".

5.   Apostasia is translated as "departure" in many Bibles.

6 .  Liddell and Scott Dictionary authors note Apostasia is translated as "spacial departure" in one case in the 6th century.

7.   metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to fall away"

8.   metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to depart"

9.   metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both signify "change" as the rapture is a change.

10. metathesis, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both (in the word it's derrived from, aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".

11. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo (rapture in 1 Thess 4:17), can both mean "to take"

12. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to seize"

13. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to snatch away"

14. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, also carries the meaning "to marry, take a wife" which is a strong rapture parallel

15. Apostasia and harpazo both carry connotations of violence.  Apostaisia a violent revolt & rebellion, and harpazo "to seize by force" John 6:15

16 .Harpazo, like metathesis and aphistemi--root of apostasia, mean "to remove"

17. Harpazo is used in a peculiar way to signify "falling away from the faith" in Matthew 13:19, which is the main definition of apostasia.

18. The play on words of "stand in, present" enistemi and "stand off, absent" aphistemi, shows that apostasia, which comes from aphistemi, signifies the rapture, when people will be "absent".

19. ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, means "be married to" and the rapture is the marriage.

20. ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, means "to arise" and the rapture is when we rise up.

21. ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, signifies "of miracles" and the rapture will be a miracle.

22. Apostasia, as rapture, is fully consistent with apostasia as religious rebellion, and it is not an either/or definition or option, the word means both.

23. Those who say the pre trib rapture is false doctrine (an apostasy) unwittingly confirm that apostasia signifies rapture.

 

Source for above:  http://www.bibleprophesy.org/apostasia.htm

 

And just thinking out loud..... What would "falling away" look like these days.  We're Certainly Chalk Full of Apostasy Now.  Wouldn't anymore just be redundant?

 

 

Second:  Does Paul give us any more details in the Subsequent Passages:

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-9) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

 

The "he" is the Holy Spirit....

 

For him ("That Wicked") to be revealed, the "Restrainer" must be removed!! The "Restrainer" is The Holy Spirit and was given to the Body of Christ after Christ left.

 

(John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

 

(John 14:26) " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

 

(John 16:7) " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

 

Jesus had to Leave for the "Comforter to Come".  Who did he give it to......"The Church", Forever!  It appears from John, that they (Jesus and the Comforter) can't be on the Earth @ the same time.

 

This also implies for Jesus to Return the "Restrainer" must be removed.

 

There is absolutely NO WAY the Comforter/Restrainer Leaves the Church......He's The Embodiment of it !!!!!!

GOD alone "Restrains" evil; Period, End of Story.  Read JOB for a full demonstration of that very fact.

 

Taking the Full Description it's pretty clear that "The Church" is Raptured before the ac is "revealed".  Lot's of other Proof Texts but we can start here.

[Montana Marv]

Well I just came in here to ask for pre-tribbers to please explain. Did not read all 185 posts yet, but will scroll thru at some point yet. I am reading Thessalonians 2:1-4 and the Apostle Paul istelling them not to be quickly shaken from their composure saying the Lord has already come. He says the apostasy has to come first and the man who (antichrist) takes his seat in the temple of God. Ok.......That of course could still mean mid trib, but pretrib? Unfortunately I can't start a new post.

Pamela

 

Welcome

 

First v.4 is describing how his rule will be; his exalting himself comes first, his setting himself in Gods temple will come later.  The Temple will be built sometime during his rule.  The lawless one will be revealed when the one who now holds it back is removed (the Holy Spirit) v.7  This happens first.

 

In Christ

Montana marv

[ENOCH2010]

The last couple posts sound pleasing to the ears, but the truth of the of the (he) in those verses is, they are guessing at the identity of the he. No where in the Bible is(he) identified, and to say otherwise is a lie. That's the problem with the pre-trib doctrine, the pre-tribbes don't seem to care if they add their words to the scriptures, or take a few words out, and claim them as gospel. I have witnessed pre-tribbes in this thread, when shown in scripture an error in their doctrine, they just ignore it and add something else to try and cover it up, or say that's not what those verses really mean. One thing is for sure, at the second coming they will be the first group proven wrong or right.

[Montana Marv]

The last couple posts sound pleasing to the ears, but the truth of the of the (he) in those verses is, they are guessing at the identity of the he. No where in the Bible is(he) identified, and to say otherwise is a lie. That's the problem with the pre-trib doctrine, the pre-tribbes don't seem to care if they add their words to the scriptures, or take a few words out, and claim them as gospel. I have witnessed pre-tribbes in this thread, when shown in scripture an error in their doctrine, they just ignore it and add something else to try and cover it up, or say that's not what those verses really mean. One thing is for sure, at the second coming they will be the first group proven wrong or right.

Enoch2010

 

Really at the pre 70th Week of Daniel Rapture we will proven right or wrong.  But if you want to see the A/C and False Prophet face to face, that is up to you.  For I will be seeing Jesus face to face at the Pre-Trib Rapture.  All else is about Israel during this final week.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Matt36]

Matt

 

There are also two other warning angels (Rev 14:8-13);  The second foretelling Babylons fall, and the Third warning people not to take the mark of the beast or worship him.  In Rev 13 we see the mark of the beast being issued near the onset of the 70th week.  The beast had a fatal wound by a sword and was headed of this wound.  All the world was astonished and followed this beast.  A time of peace, and for only 3 1/2 years.  This same individual affirms or makes a 7 year decree or covenant with many,  This same individual breaks this covenant/decree when he sets up the A/D at the mid point of the week per (Dan 9:27).  This same individual was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. Some are killed with the sword, others go into captivity.

 

One must also understand Rev 12:12-14 - But woe to the earth and sea, because the devil has gone down to you.  He is filled with fury, because he knows his time is short.  When the dragon was that he had been hurled to earth, he perused the woman (Israel) who had given birth to the male child.  v14 The woman fled into the desert where she might be taken care of for 3 1/2 years.  This coincides with Matt 24:15-20, where they are to flee when the A/D is set up.  Who begins to chase them, not the one who set the A/D up, but the one who was hurled down out from Heaven (the devil or dragon which is Satan) and for 3 1/2 years they are protected.

 

So we see that the beast with the fatal wound has power for 3 1/2 years (first half of the week, peace of sorts), then another more powerful one comes on the scene (the devil, dragon or Satan) which tries to harm Israel for  3 1/2 years (second half of the week, total chaos begins).  This is where my timeline is viewed from.  This is how I see an overview of the 70 Week of Daniel. 

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Montana Marv, you have a good grasp of revelation. This is what i also believe. No conflict here bro, all good.