Followup on Did God create satan to sin?

[Guest]

Power Power

 

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

 

Wonder Working Power

 

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

 

~

 

Does anyone understand that evil is not a created essence but a perversion of the created essence?

 

If that is true, it can happen again. 

 

History can repeat itself. 

 

You could wind up in heaven, and by and by get angry with God and rebel. 

 

You would have free will. 

 

Another angel could decide to rebel, like Lucifer did. 

 

Gabriel might decide to pervert "created essence" and lead a rebellion. 

 

Nobody will ever be secure. 

 

Evil may not exist in heaven, but angels and people could pervert the created essence again and wind up in hell. 

 

It may be after a million years, but it could happen. 

 

I don't believe in unconditional eternal security, but I do believe that once you make it to heaven, you won't have to worry about winding up in hell. 

 

You will be secure for eternity. 

 

If I believed as you do, I would have to believe born again Christians, overcomers, saints of God already in heaven, could rebel and become lost. 

 

 

If

 

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,

 

till iniquity was found in thee. Ezekiel 28:15

 

I Believed

 

For thou hast said in thine heart,

 

I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

 

I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
 

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
 

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,

 

to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:13-15

 

I Would Know The Sons Of The Living God

 

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;

 

and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face;

 

and his name shall be in their foreheads.

 

And there shall be no night there;

 

and they need no candle, neither light of the sun;

 

for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:3-5

 

Are Forever Kept In

 

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,

 

neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:27-28

 

His Hands

 

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;

 

and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

I and my Father are one. John 10:29-30

 

For I Have

 

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,

 

and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God,

 

and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem,

 

which cometh down out of heaven from my God:

 

and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12

 

His Word On It

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,

 

and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,

 

and shall not come into condemnation;

 

but is passed from death

 

unto life. John 5:24

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[a-seeker]

It is my opinion that most of these difficulties are Red Herrings (I think that is the term).

 

First, as to violation of freewill: Even if God created creatures knowing that they would rebel, still that does not render freewill obsolete—it is still their will which moved against God.  Pharaoh is often cited as an example of God’s violating man’s freewill.  This is nonsense: it creates a picture of Pharaoh, quite disposed to release the Hebrews (whom he enslaved in the first place, let's remember), then suddenly, under an external pressure upon and AGAINST his will, deciding not to.  That is a psychological impossibility.  When we talk of one’s freewill being violated, it involves something besides their will—like a body when it is abducted or abused--I was put in a trunk against my will.  But in this discussion we are talking about a WILL acting upon another will: two naked wills.  We have very little in our terrestrial experience to help us comprehend this: but even in natural affairs we talk of “falling in love” against our will, or a child liking the taste of squash though he was forced to eat it—do we really mean that it violated our freewill?  No.  My guess is that “violated freewill” is a contradiction in terms, a non-entity, a meaningless combination of two words which we mistake for having meaning.  We might as well talk of a right-handed left-foot, or a triangular square.

 

Secondly, often we must talk of God as “seeing ahead”, but we must not become victims of our own language.  God does not “see the future”, for such an act puts Him at one point of time in relation to others; in fact, makes Him finite.  Thus all problems that really result from that picture are illusory.  So when we question God’s justice in creating persons whom He knows will perish, we are creating a problem that isn’t really there—as if God is now at point 0 contemplating (for, an hour?) creating Zach, looking ahead to a Zach that hasn’t even been created yet, a mere theoretical abstraction, and perceiving that Zach (who, remember, doesn’t even exist yet!) will not accept Him, then deciding to create him anyway!  Or not create him, for that matter.  Either way It is far too anthropomorphic.

 

Thirdly, to question God’s justice for creating such lamentable creatures as, say, Judas, involves the more fundamental and paradoxical question of whether it would be better not to create—but for whom would it be better??  How should I, if I didn't exist, profit by my not existing?  There are simply no scales in which we can weigh non-existence against even the worst of existences.

 

Finally, there is a difference among “goods”.  The creation of freewill is a good thing, even if it can be used for bad purposes.  But God can exploit these bad purposes to create an even greater good.  Thus Judas was truly free when betraying Christ; but God used that betrayal to, ultimately, lead to Christ’s resurrection and our salvation.  Another writer pictured God as the master chess player, using what seemed to be very crafty maneuvers against His plan to in fact fulfill His plan.  All Roads lead to Rome!  But for some reason God has allowed creatures to determine which one He will use.

 

clb

Edited April 13, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[enoob57]

The neat thing about family our foundational reasoning is from God's Word

and not opinions from a finite balcony...

1 Cor 3:11

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

KJV

John 1:14

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory,

the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

KJV

Love, Steven

[missmuffet]

 

I think you people have gone nuts.....

 

 

IF you all really believe that God controls everything and created all this perverted world knowingly and there's really nothing we can do about any of it I have only one thing to say and it's a quote from someone here.... If he made the devil evil then he made all us the way we are and there is no free will.

 

If there is no free will, then God is not a Father, nor is He a Shepherd or a Husband or a King.
If there is no free will, then all life is a puppet show, and God is a Puppet Master pulling on a string.

[oak]

 

 

Well one of the constants in theology is that God 'IS' holy and since satans 5 I will's

in Isa 14 God has separated Himself eternally from satan by casting him to the earth.

I don't think that God's original plan can be thwarted by evil for God simply doesn't give it a

place in His Eternity...

As far as the hearing of things I am very squeamish about a subjective approach to anything-> do

to the need of reliance on anything other than His Word scenarios...

 

To be absolutely sure of course I would......   The Bible does not answer all my questions.....   it makes a way for salvation and introduces me to the Father......    but I do have questions....   this would be one.     While I can -actually see both sides from what the Bible says, I can't fathom that my God would create a being to make all the death, destruction, heartache and pain that this creature has caused.      I find it very difficult to believe that he would do that on purpose.    Do that with the possibilities I can see, but not that he knew for sure before hand.

Some say that I limit God by believing this......     Could I love a God that would kill several million unborn babies a year.....    I don't know that I could do that...   can you???

 

I can.  I believe God can do anything he wants, and since I know his ways are higher than mine, I just accept what he does.  Can someone love a God that has the ability to put a stop to Satan and could have destroyed him before he did anyone any harm?  If it wasn't God's plan from the start, it is obvious he allows the devil to do harm to people.  If you had the power to speak the word and put an end to Satan now, would you?  I would.  I wouldn't think twice about it.  God has that power, so it is obvious to me he has a plan and is using the devil to fulfill it.  I trust God completely.  He is the potter and I am but clay.  Who am I to say anything against anything God does? 

 

Hi Butero,

Thank you for your response on the "Does God make mistakes" post. I just zigzagged my way here. I know your entrenched in your belief on the subject of God creating evil but I just wanted to add a few additional thoughts. Something you said in the debate with Enoob, struck me and it's in keeping with your answer to him here as well. That is you state God is an all knowing God and therefore He is responsible for everything. Being very well aware that we can both be wrong in part, I will suggest to you that God gives dignity to all His creations, evil or good. And that He takes their actions seriously. From the human side of things there are the 10 Commandments. These laws apply to everyone. Yet God knew that not all laws would be followed and perhaps most people would not follow these laws. In your estimation what is the reason for these laws considering your position?  

 

Lastly when I say go to the Cross, I don't mean to just ask Christ your questions; I mean literally go to the Cross with Christ on the Cross. This single action, along with His resurrection, is saying thousands upon thousands of things. Including why would God suffer degradation and great pain? Why would God appear as sin to God? Why would the world reject it's own Creator? The Cross is defeat and victory, hopeless and with a wealth of hope. Through the contemplation of the Cross, we can bring many questions to that particular event. Including why would God need to defeat evil in this particular way? Why would he respond to evil at all? I believe Christ did not go to the Cross because He created evil. That just does not ring true. When I look at Christ on the Cross, this took place because of dire necessity. Did God know about it all along - yes. But knowing about everything does not suppose exactly the way God will act with that power.  Anyway you draw your own conclusions and if you'd like to share, I'm all ears.  

 

Yours in Christ,

Oak

 

Oak

[enoob57]

I believe these are excellent points Oak... The evaluation of God 'IS' impossible with that which has beginning!

Our uniqueness is that we have beginning in God before we ever became in ourselves and this revelation awaits us

when we are taken into His Presence for the eternal bonding of what His Work has began in us here...

1 John 3:2

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:

but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

KJV

This is held in the Power of eternity past in the Thoughts and election of God

John 17:24-25

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they

may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of

the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and

these have known that thou hast sent me.

KJV

Notice that which we have not known, of us that are in this world, Righteous Father... Only Jesus has known Him and

the seal has been given, 'The Holy Spirit', to those who realize the truth that all that they are comprised of is

tainted and made ruin by sin. We who have called out to God did so in complete bankruptcy and total void of value

into The Holiness of God. Using The Name of Jesus The Christ to be heard and delivered By The Lord's Work on the cross...

As this is our hope formed from His Word and Sealed with His Spirit

1 John 3:3-7

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.4 Whosoever

committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye

know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth

in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children,

let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

KJV

We know this is true because of the nature of moral evil is that of leaven

1 Cor 5:4-8

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the

power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the

flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good.

Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven,

that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for

us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice

and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

KJV

In this account we understand the dilemma of Paul

Rom 7:14-25

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I

do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do

that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that

do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth

no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do

that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law,

that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after

the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and

bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am!

who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

KJV

We have come full circle in the Purity and Holiness and Righteousness of God in all that is hoped it is the complete

putting away of moral evil that satan is accredited as father of and that which is not redeemed the total destruction

of (that being anywhere satan has trod or possessed old heaven and earth)...

The complete redemption of eternity past before God's creative occurrence into the eternal future of New Heaven and New

Earth with New bodies possessing redeemed soul of reborn s(S)pirit forever with the Lord of Glory....

Love, Steven

[oak]

I believe these are excellent points Oak... The evaluation of God 'IS' impossible with that which has beginning!

Our uniqueness is that we have beginning in God before we ever became in ourselves and this revelation awaits us

when we are taken into His Presence for the eternal bonding of what His Work has began in us here...

1 John 3:2

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:

but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

KJV

This is held in the Power of eternity past in the Thoughts and election of God

John 17:24-25

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they

may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of

the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and

these have known that thou hast sent me.

KJV

Notice that which we have not known, of us that are in this world, Righteous Father... Only Jesus has known Him and

the seal has been given, 'The Holy Spirit', to those who realize the truth that all that they are comprised of is

tainted and made ruin by sin. We who have called out to God did so in complete bankruptcy and total void of value

into The Holiness of God. Using The Name of Jesus The Christ to be heard and delivered By The Lord's Work on the cross...

As this is our hope formed from His Word and Sealed with His Spirit

1 John 3:3-7

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.4 Whosoever

committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye

know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth

in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children,

let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

KJV

We know this is true because of the nature of moral evil is that of leaven

1 Cor 5:4-8

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the

power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the

flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good.

Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven,

that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for

us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice

and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

KJV

In this account we understand the dilemma of Paul

Rom 7:14-25

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I

do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do

that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that

do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth

no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do

that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law,

that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after

the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and

bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am!

who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

KJV

We have come full circle in the Purity and Holiness and Righteousness of God in all that is hoped it is the complete

putting away of moral evil that satan is accredited as father of and that which is not redeemed the total destruction

of (that being anywhere satan has trod or possessed old heaven and earth)...

The complete redemption of eternity past before God's creative occurrence into the eternal future of New Heaven and New

Earth with New bodies possessing redeemed soul of reborn s(S)pirit forever with the Lord of Glory....

Love, Steven

Thank you for sharing the hope we have in Christ and your thoughts on a New Heaven and Earth. I feel what you and Butero have done is, at the least, to draw people to the Bible. However I didn't raise the questions in regards to our Lords Crucifixion, to ask unanswerable questions. In this time of evil, where God is portrayed as murderous and aligning Himself with evil, we must look upon The Crucifixion to awaken us. This is a very relieving event. Would a God that creates evil or allows it, have His Son who even a thief see's as innocent, subjected to a miserable fate with no just cause? The Jews and Muslims cry out God can not die. He can't be poor, he can not be mocked or tortured - He is Sovereign. Christ is a humble God. Accusing Him of wrong is unmerciful!

Again in this Crucifixion and Resurrection are the most important, act of grace in the Bible. Christ cry's out in pain; go to the Cross; is this the act of an evil puppeteer? There is no worldly glory in the Crucifixion and it is often dismissed for that reason alone. Is this what God truly wanted - to make himself human, to be like His creation and be tortured for it. The Crucifixion, in these times, show God being evil towards His Son and The Trinity. And if you don't believe in salvation or Christ, then it's just that.  Again remember what the good thief said, "for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds but this man has done nothing wrong." Lk 23:41 And this is true for all of us.

Through Christ's great act of mercy ask your questions. We really only have an action to take and that is belief. But Is Christ aligned with evil in any way - "God is One" - and the answer is a resounding no!!! In fact The Crucifixion is a line being drawn - God is Holy and will not tolerate or accept evil of any kind to the point of shame suffering and death. How more clearly can this be made?

 

Love,

 

Oak       

[enoob57]

God has had a purpose in the evil of our world.He did not create it but He has allowed it.

Is Lucifer evil? 

 

Who created Lucifer? 

 

If God didn't create evil, who did?

God created evil as entropy- creating death as separation from His Life thus turning evil back upon itself

as never being part of God and having no place in His original creative plan... the choice had to be there

in order for God to have creatures apart from His Own to be of willful need of Him and to glory in Him. Lucifer

broke this purpose by God by not needing Him or glorying in Him thus becoming the father of this lie!

However Moral evil being formed from lie purporting to be truth has no place in God Who 'IS' truth and there

exist in all eternity no creative substance for lie... satan rebelled and this was his only way to do so as

God filled all eternity with His Truth!

Butero you have repeatedly said this makes God weak and in order for God to be sovereign He had to will it to

be this way... I tell in in truth God's Will was no one should perish but all come to repentance yet His sovereign

Will is done by looking at the eternal outcome just as if sin never occurred! Everyone knows no and yes can never

answer the same question- God cannot be Willing and not Willing on the same instance- this logical fallacy you must

answer in your stance... Love, Steven

Edited April 19, 2014 by enoob57

[Donibm]

I know there were some who wanted to comment on this so here you can...

 

I'm not part of that group, but I'd say absolutely not.

 

God did not create Satan just o make him sin.  That is to accuse God Himself, a God who CANNOT sin ... of sin.

 

And God Himself puts blame on Satan but saying that "you were perfect until inquity was FOUND IN YOU"  God didn't say "til I put it in you".  He said "til it was FOUND in you"

 

Can God "find" what He did not create or sent?  No, He "finds" what was birthed by something else.  And it was Satan's pride, since he was full of spender, but forgot that all those precious stones on him were reflecting GODS glory, not his own light. 

 

Personally, I daren't charge God with sin.  I'm too afriad to flirt with that sort of danger.  The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom indeed.  After all, the warning AND the threat clearly says:

 

"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees"

 

Just about every christian and Biblical academic I meet tends to overlook the SCRIBE.  The Scribe is the WRITER of falsehood, and according to Jesus, those who TYPE/WRITE falsehoods will share the same damnation or/and judgment as the people who live hypocritical lives.  They are one in the same - the ones who talk without writing, and the ones who write without talking.  God sees ALL idol words.

 

All of us are SCRIBES.  As long as you are typing in these threads, you most certainly ARE a scribe.  Better pay attention and be careful how you handle the Word of God.  Be very careful.  Some of you already should be on your knees begging for forgiveness.  Some of you.  Seen it with my own eyes.

 

"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees"

 

Be careful how you charge God for sin ... least He judge you harshly for profaining His character.  Best you read the longest response from God in Scriptures ... found in the Book of Job.  See how God feels about being falsely accused, even by the THOUGHT of men.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Donibm

[Diatheosis]

God is the the alpha and the omega, so He most certainly knows how it goes. He knows the outcome of the equation, the possibilities which become, yet He abides above time and space as we know them.

 

So God's Word is prophetic because He simply KNOWS, 

 

I can choose to do things I know are not right. Lucifer had similar options.

 

On the cosmic scale, Lucifer in his position got insane. Imagine a human being who is not sane, The reality in which they live is making them do absurd things. It does not mean they are stupid but can be quite cunning. How then a high ranking angel?