Dear rapture believers

[Montana Marv]

 

RT

 

That is part of my point.  The Rapture Doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It did not come out of England in the 1820's.  Paul clarifies what to look for.  He did not say that this doctrine was false as some portray.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The gathering to Christ was taught by the early Church, but not the doctrine called the Pre-Trib Rapture which did begin in 1830's Britain with the Irvingite and Brethren movements, and John Darby.

 

Was not the Thessalonians belief about the Rapture, Pre-Trib.  That it may have already happened, that they had missed it (imminence).  They would not have missed the Resurrection or the Second Coming; they would have known about their translation or seeing Christ in all His Glory.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

 

 

RT

 

That is part of my point.  The Rapture Doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It did not come out of England in the 1820's.  Paul clarifies what to look for.  He did not say that this doctrine was false as some portray.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The gathering to Christ was taught by the early Church, but not the doctrine called the Pre-Trib Rapture which did begin in 1830's Britain with the Irvingite and Brethren movements, and John Darby.

 

Was not the Thessalonians belief about the Rapture, Pre-Trib.  That it may have already happened, that they had missed it (imminence).  They would not have missed the Resurrection or the Second Coming; they would have known about their translation or seeing Christ in all His Glory.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Error: assuming the word 'rapture' means the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine that began in 1830's Great Britain.

 

Error: "imminence", the idea that Christ can come anytime, when He instead gave a specific order of events to be watching leading up to His return, which MUST occur first. That's one of Apostle Paul's subjects in the 2 Thess.2 chapter.

 

One of the meanings of 2 Thess.2 for the Church today, is how the same types that befuddled many brethren in the Thessalonian Church still exist today, to try to twist the actual Scripture order of events for Christ's return and our gathering to Him.

[Salty]

 

 

I concur with  rollinTHUNDER

 

By the time Paul wrote his second epistle to the Thessalonians, it was most apparent, that they did not "know all about the day of the Lord" and other such events. In his second epistle Paul makes it clear that the man of sin must first come

 

The Thessalonians thought were concerned because they thought the resurrection was already past. It has nothing to do with a so called rapture.

 

That would make the following subject of Paul's first verse irrelevant then...

 

II Th 2:1-2

1    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

 

 

No it doesnt

 

 

So you're now telling me the 2 Thess.2 chapter has nothing to do with the order and timing of Christ's return and our gathering to Him?

 

Where in that 2 Thess.2 does Paul mention the Thessalonians thought the resurrection may have already passed? It's not there, but what is there is Paul addressing how some were confusing them about the time of Christ's coming and the gathering of His saints.

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

I have no idea when the 70th Week of Daniel will begin, yet when it begins there is a seven year window.  So what is your guess at the time for the Rapture in this seven year window.  Opps, the time for the Rapture is now predictable.  Yet only God the Father knows when the Son (the Bridegroom) will come for His Bride.  Mid trib is a known time, pre-wrath is a known time, the 7th Trumpet is a known time, Post-Trib is a known time.  The only unknown time is the start of the 70th Week of Daniel, impossible for us to calculate its exact time.  But if you do know the time of the Rapture (Scripture does not reveal it - Jesus Christ is the Word, and yet the Son does not know the timing).  Good Luck in your knowing.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

Salty

 

I have no idea when the 70th Week of Daniel will begin, yet when it begins there is a seven year window.  So what is your guess at the time for the Rapture in this seven year window.  Opps, the time for the Rapture is now predictable.  Yet only God the Father knows when the Son (the Bridegroom) will come for His Bride.  Mid trib is a known time, pre-wrath is a known time, the 7th Trumpet is a known time, Post-Trib is a known time.  The only unknown time is the start of the 70th Week of Daniel, impossible for us to calculate its exact time.  But if you do know the time of the Rapture (Scripture does not reveal it - Jesus Christ is the Word, and yet the Son does not know the timing).  Good Luck in your knowing.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

No rapture within the seven year window at all. Christ's second coming is a one-time event, not several. That's what God's Word declares per the Books of Daniel, Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, Christ's Revelation through John, and even quite a bit of Apostle Paul's Epistles, especially the 2 Thess.2 chapter. Christ's enemies of course always contrive something different than Christ's return and our gathering after the Antichrist comes and then Christ's coming to end Antichrist's reign, and the tribulation which Jesus taught.

 

You're wrong about those known time theories, because no one knows when the 7th trumpet will sound, and no one knows the day when Jesus returns. Does that mean He didn't tell us the events to be watching leading up to His return? No, of course not, for He did tell us, and even commanded for us to be on watch (end of Matt.24).

 

That's why your attempted ploy to deceive others about those other views than what you hold to just doesn't hold water. It's one thing to believe something from Scripture and try to persuade with Scripture to back it up, but it's another thing to just throw out rash as-a-matter-of-fact type statements with nothing to back it up. With the former you only associate yourself with those who are 'seeking' God's Truth, though they may not have fully understood yet. But with the latter you associate yourself with those who seek to deceive the brethren, which is a terrible sin against Christ.

 

It's not a matter of simply wanting... to be correct. It's a matter of whether it's God's Word as written or not.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Salty

[Spock]

Hey salty,

1. Do you believe the book of revelation is chronological?

2. How do you interpret revelation chapter 7:9- end?

9After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb.”

11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:

“Amen!

Praise and glory

and wisdom and thanks and honor

and power and strength

be to our God for ever and ever.

Amen!”

13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God

and serve him day and night in his temple;

and he who sits on the throne

will shelter them with his presence.

16‘Never again will they hunger;

never again will they thirst.

The sun will not beat down on them,’

nor any scorching heat.

17For the Lamb at the center of the throne

will be their shepherd;

‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’

‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’

[Montana Marv]

 

Salty

 

I have no idea when the 70th Week of Daniel will begin, yet when it begins there is a seven year window.  So what is your guess at the time for the Rapture in this seven year window.  Opps, the time for the Rapture is now predictable.  Yet only God the Father knows when the Son (the Bridegroom) will come for His Bride.  Mid trib is a known time, pre-wrath is a known time, the 7th Trumpet is a known time, Post-Trib is a known time.  The only unknown time is the start of the 70th Week of Daniel, impossible for us to calculate its exact time.  But if you do know the time of the Rapture (Scripture does not reveal it - Jesus Christ is the Word, and yet the Son does not know the timing).  Good Luck in your knowing.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

No rapture within the seven year window at all. Christ's second coming is a one-time event, not several. That's what God's Word declares per the Books of Daniel, Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, Christ's Revelation through John, and even quite a bit of Apostle Paul's Epistles, especially the 2 Thess.2 chapter. Christ's enemies of course always contrive something different than Christ's return and our gathering after the Antichrist comes and then Christ's coming to end Antichrist's reign, and the tribulation which Jesus taught.

 

You're wrong about those known time theories, because no one knows when the 7th trumpet will sound, and no one knows the day when Jesus returns. Does that mean He didn't tell us the events to be watching leading up to His return? No, of course not, for He did tell us, and even commanded for us to be on watch (end of Matt.24).

 

That's why your attempted ploy to deceive others about those other views than what you hold to just doesn't hold water. It's one thing to believe something from Scripture and try to persuade with Scripture to back it up, but it's another thing to just throw out rash as-a-matter-of-fact type statements with nothing to back it up. With the former you only associate yourself with those who are 'seeking' God's Truth, though they may not have fully understood yet. But with the latter you associate yourself with those who seek to deceive the brethren, which is a terrible sin against Christ.

 

It's not a matter of simply wanting... to be correct. It's a matter of whether it's God's Word as written or not.

 

Salty

 

The time of the Rapture is not revealed in Scripture.  NaDa.

 

Yet we know that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is after Armageddon.  This is in Scripture.  The events of the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments are also in Scripture.  What is not in Scripture; The time of the Rapture.  One needs to look at the ancient Jewish Wedding procedure.  Google it.

 

Isn't it quite funny how many state that the Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine is False and not of God.  Maybe we think the same about the other Rapture positions, yours is no different.  This is my estimate;  Of those who do have a Rapture position, I would say 50% are Pre-Trib.,  20% are Mid-Trib., 10 - 15% are Pre-Wrath,  Less than 5% are 7th Trumpet plus others, 15-20% are Post-Trib.  Do you bash these other Rapture Positions, I only see you attacking one position.  Yes it usually the Majority position which gets bashed.  Less than 5% of those who have a Rapture position fall in your camp.  So these other four positions must also be false and not Scriptural,  Is this what you are saying.  I think it all depends on when do you want to go.  Is one worthy now to be Raptured, or does Christ want a bloody Bride.

 

I know this is a bit harsh, which position wins.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

Wow, I wish I had the time right now to get into this, but I will say a few things:

 

The number of supporters of a theory, have nothing to do with it's truthfullnes, and I cannot even imagine how you cam up with your estimate anyway.

The history of pre-trib theory, doest seem to be pretty much a recent one, but that also has nothing to do with it's truthfulness.

I don't think that most who do not hold to the pret-trib theory who criticise it, are not saying it is unGodly, they are usually saying that it is a theory that does not naturally arise from studying the scripture alone, it requires a lot of presumption of what things mean, instead of what the bible says, it is a view read into the scripture, not remotely a clear teaching of scripture.

Mainly though, I don't think I understand most of what your are trying to say in post 118, I wish you would restate it, it is more than my simple mind can follow.

 

My simple questions would be, what verses teach a coming for the saints before the trib? We see the coming after the trib, even pretribbers see that, one. Where is there a secret coming, an invisible coming etc, I just cannot find it, and no one seems to be able to point to where the bible teaches that, they just assert that it is implied, but I don't see that implication. Help?

[Salty]

Salty

 

 

The time of the Rapture is not revealed in Scripture.  NaDa.

 

Yet we know that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is after Armageddon.  This is in Scripture.  The events of the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments are also in Scripture.  What is not in Scripture; The time of the Rapture.  One needs to look at the ancient Jewish Wedding procedure.  Google it.

 

Isn't it quite funny how many state that the Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine is False and not of God.  Maybe we think the same about the other Rapture positions, yours is no different.  This is my estimate;  Of those who do have a Rapture position, I would say 50% are Pre-Trib.,  20% are Mid-Trib., 10 - 15% are Pre-Wrath,  Less than 5% are 7th Trumpet plus others, 15-20% are Post-Trib.  Do you bash these other Rapture Positions, I only see you attacking one position.  Yes it usually the Majority position which gets bashed.  Less than 5% of those who have a Rapture position fall in your camp.  So these other four positions must also be false and not Scriptural,  Is this what you are saying.  I think it all depends on when do you want to go.  Is one worthy now to be Raptured, or does Christ want a bloody Bride.

 

I know this is a bit harsh, which position wins.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

The timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints actually is... revealed by The LORD in His Word. He called the "day of The LORD", and that's the day Apostles Paul and Peter referred to with Christ's coming "as a thief" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). It's also the phrase in 2 Thess.2 that Paul said, the "day of Christ", because the actual Greek word in the manuscripts is 'kurios' instead of 'Christ'. The word kurios means 'lord'. So Paul was directly relating to the "day of The LORD" timing of the Old Testament prophets, just as Peter was.

 

In Rev.16:15, Jesus gave a warning to the Church to keep their garments lest they walk naked and appear in shame, because He comes "as a thief". That is on the 6th Vial events when Jesus gave that warning, just prior to the 7th Vial event with the battle of Armageddon:

 

Rev 16:15-17

15    Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16    And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17    And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."

(KJV)

 

Thusly Jesus comes "as a thief" on that day of the battle of Armageddon, which is a "day of The LORD" event per the OT prophets.

 

One does not... need to compare this to the Jewish wedding feast, simply because our Lord Jesus did not... use that order to show the events of His coming. Per the ten virgin parable, Christ's servants are guests per the wedding feast ideology. The Pre-trib Rapture school tries many in-roads to create a change against the Scripture order; their teaching of the Jewish wedding traditions in comparison is just one of them. And it's strikingly obvious what they do because our Lord Jesus actually made the order of events leading up to His second coming easy to understand in His Word.

 

The rest of your post is just rambling. If it makes you angry and to ramble like that when someone contests the theories of the Pre-trib Rapture school, why not turn to God's Word and find out what is actually written for yourself?

[Salty]

Hey salty,

1. Do you believe the book of revelation is chronological?

2. How do you interpret revelation chapter 7:9- end?

9After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb.”

11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:

“Amen!

Praise and glory

and wisdom and thanks and honor

and power and strength

be to our God for ever and ever.

Amen!”

13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God

and serve him day and night in his temple;

and he who sits on the throne

will shelter them with his presence.

16‘Never again will they hunger;

never again will they thirst.

The sun will not beat down on them,’

nor any scorching heat.

17For the Lamb at the center of the throne

will be their shepherd;

‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’

‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’

 

If you're asking me if I interpret Christ's Book of Revelation how the Pre-trib Rapture school does, then my answer is absolutely not. They believe the Church is raptured out by Rev.4 or 7 don't they, and that the rest of the chapters are involving only those left behind?

 

If you want to know how I interpret Revelation, then the first thing you'd have to do is dump all the traditions of men junk that gets in the way of understanding the actual 'events' Christ gave, and their event relation within other Bible Scripture. If we're speaking Bible, then let's speak Bible, and not man's thing which is nothing but tethers like the Pharisees created upon God's people.

 

In regards to Rev.7, one thing is learned early when studying the Old Testament prophets. The timeline moves back and forth very quickly, sometimes from Adamic times to the eternity within just a few short phrases in a single verse. Many Revelation Scriptures are written the same way, Rev.7 being a chapter that has some of that. So it's impossible to properly understand Rev.7 by itself; it has to be understood in relation to other Scripture also which relate to those events, like Rev.6 & 9 as two examples, and even Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13.

 

The other thing about Rev.7 is regarding the subject first given in the Rev.7:1-3 verses, and its relation to the idea in Rev.9. Without understanding that relation you won't really know who all those 144,000 represent, nor with that "great multitude" that is shown to be a part of that.