Sevenseas Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2014 Why water down the faith? God has never done anything wrong. I think it is terribly presumptuous of us to try to explain his actions. We should say God is perfect - end of discussion. Stringing people along with contrived explanations makes for a weak-faithed congregation. The problem is that your description of God is false. God is holy and therefore His perfection is holy. God's actions are actually already well explained. In...the...Bible. It's all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinitron Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 140 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2014 Well, I don't need to defend or God. If he told Satan to kill Job's children or if God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul that was his choice. God's foolishness is better than man's wisdom. 1 Corinthians 1:25 God is above our questioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2014 how do you feel about misrepresenting Him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking1 Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 24 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 The only apologetics that can explain rape and slavery in the bible is that God is perfect, therefore anytihng he does is perfect. This includes committing, ordering, or condoning slavery, rape, incest, eugenics, genocide etc. You can put any spin on it you want, but in the end if God did it, it is not immoral, and we should stop apologizing for it (note the difference between apologizing and apologetics). Why water down the faith? God has never done anything wrong. I think it is terribly presumptuous of us to try to explain his actions. We should say God is perfect - end of discussion. Stringing people along with contrived explanations makes for a weak-faithed congregation. Well, I don't need to defend or God. If he told Satan to kill Job's children or if God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul that was his choice. God's foolishness is better than man's wisdom. 1 Corinthians 1:25 God is above our questioning. Genocide, slavery, rape...what's the problem? God said it's ok. King David had a man killed so he could take his wife. Elijah cursed a bunch of kids for making fun of his baldness and a couple bears killed them. Who are we to question God? The bible is either the inspired word of God or it isn't. Who are we to pick and choose? What's next? Are we going to put God on trial and judge him? If the bible says to have your child stoned, then that is God's will. We also just have to remember that we have to follow the laws of the land and obey authority as the authority is God given. That is why the Jews could not stone the adulterer woman because they were under Roman law. That is why they had to get Rome to kill Jesus. They believed in God's law but at that time were under Roman law. This attitude seems right to hyper-Calvinists, Muslims, fatalistic pagans, or even atheists looking to misrepresent God; however, I will argue it is actually contrary to the Word of God using Biblical evidence. This line of reasoning could be used to defend anything, including Islam, Paganism, or even Satanism. God indeed wants you to test Him, although in a righteous way and with an honest mind. The truth is falsifiable, and unlike what many Christians claim, I assert that the Bible, in order for it to be true, is falsifiable and must withstand the test of close and honest scrutiny. A Christian believing based off nothing could just as easily abandon the faith and believe something else instead for no good reason; their faith isn't based off real truth and is actually quite shaky rather than solid, contrary to popular belief. The truth is falsifiable because the truth makes absolute claims that are limited in scope and definition. Two contradictory claims cannot be true. For instance, "2 + 2" (when dealing with non-complex numbers at least - look up "imaginary numbers" in math if you are curious) always = "4." It cannot equal any other number, nor can it be "4" or "6" simultaneously. Therefore, the truth is absolute and if a true contradiction exists, then at least one of the claims must be a lie. However, I also believe that many things can seem like contradictions on the surface, but are not really lies because an important exception can determine the true meaning, in addition to considering the surrounding circumstances of a particular claim. I believe this about so-called contradictions in the Bible: they are eliminated with either a reasonable exception or closely examining the surrounding context, including the tone and tenor of the Bible as a whole, to determine a complementary meaning, rather than a real contradiction between two passages. Therefore, it is NOT a sin to scrutinize closely the claims of the Holy Bible or even to question God in certain instances. The integrity of doctrinal understanding of the both the Bible and of who is God requires it. There were instances in the Bible with those who questioned God, and they were answered favorably. For instance, Abraham and Moses were answered favorably, and even Job and Jonah were vindicated and forgiven by God. To forbid trying to understand some basic things about God could actually undermine the faith of Christians rather than strengthen it. Also, the Bible wants Christians to know their Bibles and be able to defend their faith against the unbelievers. The ignorance of Christians today is why the world is in the state it is in today! You will not only strengthen and build your own faith in the written Word, but help convert others with open, honest minds to Christianity! The character of God can be tested with His own Word, if He meets His own standards of Holiness! God invites others to reason with Him, knowing He will win, because He is consistent and would never lie or contradict Himself! He does NOT fear honest scrutiny or examination! Let me provide some quotes from the Bible supporting my position: John 10:37 "If I [Jesus] do not the works of my Father, believe me not." Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." 1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." 1 Corinthians 2:15 "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." Proverbs 25:2 "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Micah 6:3 "O my people, what have I done unto thee? and wherein have I wearied thee? testify against me." Isaiah 41:21 "Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob." Isaiah 43:26 "Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified." Isaiah 41:1 "Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment." ------------------------------------------- "Reasoning With God" http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/600/Reasoning-With-God.htm http://bridgetwillard.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/reasoning-with-god/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted June 9, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2014 Well, I don't need to defend or God. If he told Satan to kill Job's children or if God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul that was his choice. God's foolishness is better than man's wisdom. 1 Corinthians 1:25 God is above our questioning. If only I had a dollar for every time I've seen 1 Cor 1:25 misquoted to justify some or other contradictory notion about God... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Well, I don't need to defend or God. If he told Satan to kill Job's children or if God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul that was his choice. God's foolishness is better than man's wisdom. 1 Corinthians 1:25 God is above our questioning. That is a complete mishandling of that text. That verse is talking about the foolishness of preaching the Gospel. You are completely misrepresenting God and the Scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonky Posted June 9, 2014 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 6 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 738 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 346 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2014 You are confusing what people do, which God calls sin, with God who does not condone any sort of brutality, rape, murder, bestiality etc etc. The 10 commandments will quickly back that up. As far as what you are callling genocide, study the culture of those peoples the Israelites waged war with and you will find a bestial and cruel people who sacrificed children and basically worshipped the devil even though they may not have called him the devil as do we today. Can you cite research that shows that these nations were people who worshiped the devil and were involved in beastiality etc? I've heard similar claims in the past but I haven't seen it backed up with data. Let's assume for a moment that this is true, are we saying it's ok to kill children and force young women into marriages by their captors so long as the parents are wicked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted June 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2014 I'm a history/archeology buff and there is plenty of research. You can even just google it. Gee...we've come such a long way and we are so civilized now. abortion is what? killing infants? Sin is inherent in the human race and the offspring are just as wicked as the parents in God's eyes. I'm not saying what you are saying. People commit henious acts today and bestiality has not been eradicated...do you think the human race has declined ? Here's a 'teaser' about Canaanite religion: The antiquity of the worship of the god or gods of Baal extends back to the 14th century BCE among the ancient Semitic peoples, the descendants of Shem, the oldest son of Biblical Noah. Semitic is more of a linguistic classification than a racial one. Thus, people speaking the same or similar languages first worshiped Baal in his many forms. The word Baal means "master" or "owner". In ancient religions the name denoted sun, lord or god. Baal was common a name of small Syrian and Persian deities. Baal is still principally thought of as a Canaanite fertility deity. The Great Baal was of Canaan. He was the son of El, the high god of Canaan. The cult of Baal celebrated annually his death and resurrection as a part of the Canaanite fertility rituals. These ceremonies often included human sacrifice and temple prostitution. Baal, literal meaning is "lord," in the Canaanite pantheon was the local title of fertility gods. Baal never emerged as a rain god until later times when he assumed the special functions of each. Although there is no equivalent in Canaan of the sterile summer drought that occurs in Mesopotamia, the season cycle was marked enough to have caused a concentration on the disappearing fertility god, who took with him the autumn rain clouds into the neither world. and another: What are we to make of these disagreements amongst scholars? Most scholars today, including Day, agree on at least several points: there was a cult of child sacrifice in ancient Israel, and that this practice is of Canaanite origin; that this type of sacrifice, contra some older scholarship, does indeed refer to the practice of actually sacrificing children, and not simply of dedicating them to a deity It would be harder to prove that child sacrifice and temple prostitution and hundreds of gods did not exist as there are reams of things written that fully describe the research and digs that have been created in support of the biblical account. You can buy books at Amazon or just research online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonky Posted June 10, 2014 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 6 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 738 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 346 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2014 (edited) I'm a history/archeology buff and there is plenty of research. You can even just google it. Gee...we've come such a long way and we are so civilized now. abortion is what? killing infants? Sin is inherent in the human race and the offspring are just as wicked as the parents in God's eyes. I'm not saying what you are saying. People commit henious acts today and bestiality has not been eradicated...do you think the human race has declined ? Here's a 'teaser' about Canaanite religion: The antiquity of the worship of the god or gods of Baal extends back to the 14th century BCE among the ancient Semitic peoples, the descendants of Shem, the oldest son of Biblical Noah. Semitic is more of a linguistic classification than a racial one. Thus, people speaking the same or similar languages first worshiped Baal in his many forms. The word Baal means "master" or "owner". In ancient religions the name denoted sun, lord or god. Baal was common a name of small Syrian and Persian deities. Baal is still principally thought of as a Canaanite fertility deity. The Great Baal was of Canaan. He was the son of El, the high god of Canaan. The cult of Baal celebrated annually his death and resurrection as a part of the Canaanite fertility rituals. These ceremonies often included human sacrifice and temple prostitution. Baal, literal meaning is "lord," in the Canaanite pantheon was the local title of fertility gods. Baal never emerged as a rain god until later times when he assumed the special functions of each. Although there is no equivalent in Canaan of the sterile summer drought that occurs in Mesopotamia, the season cycle was marked enough to have caused a concentration on the disappearing fertility god, who took with him the autumn rain clouds into the neither world. and another: What are we to make of these disagreements amongst scholars? Most scholars today, including Day, agree on at least several points: there was a cult of child sacrifice in ancient Israel, and that this practice is of Canaanite origin; that this type of sacrifice, contra some older scholarship, does indeed refer to the practice of actually sacrificing children, and not simply of dedicating them to a deity It would be harder to prove that child sacrifice and temple prostitution and hundreds of gods did not exist as there are reams of things written that fully describe the research and digs that have been created in support of the biblical account. You can buy books at Amazon or just research online. The passages I was referring to involve the Midianites [Numbers chapter 31], the Bible doesn't seem to even hint that the slaughter had anything to do with child sacrifice. Wouldn't it be the ultimate irony to deal with child sacrifice...by killing children? Baal was seen as the main competitor god to YHWH, there were times when the Israelite men were seduced into worshiping this god if I'm not mistaken. You mention that the sins of the parents can trickle down to the children so to speak, I would have thought that meant that what the parents "sow"....the children sometimes "reap". I'm still not clear on why it would be seen as acceptable to murder children and force young women into marriages they more than like wouldn't want to be a part of [their family was just destroyed]. The other irony is see is, didn't YHWH ultimately show that he was indeed ok with human sacrifice? I mean once a god shows approval of one human sacrifice, does the body count really matter that much? Edited June 10, 2014 by Bonky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted June 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2014 LOL! ok....will address the Midianites when I have more time...I'm posting on the run here...and yes, the Israelites were entangling themselves with different nites regularly where did God say He was ok with human sacrifice...? if you are wishing to address such things, references would be helpful...thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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