Guest shiloh357 Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Psa 148:1-6 KJV - Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. - Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. - Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. - Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. - Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. - He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass. 2 questions. They are actually rhetorical, but I'm sure you will supply some sort of response. 1. Since the angels and hosts are being told to praise him like the heavens of heavens, and waters above the heavens, and the sun, moon and stars; are they for a limited time also? 2. verse 6 confirms the forever with "he hath made a decree which shall not pass". Is this decree just a limited time decree which will pass eventually? There was a dream once that was confirmed by doubling. Maybe the doubling is confirmation here as well: Gen 41:32 KJV - And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass. Angels are immortal. They never die. That should go without saying. Verse 6 isn't referencing the angels. it is referencing the earth and all that God has created on it. Secondly, God has made a decree that will not pass away. It doesn't say that the decree is that nothing else will pass away. His decree for the animals and rest of the created order regarding their duration will not pass away. Jesus clearly said, "Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." So even Jesus does not see this current earth as eternal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mevosper Posted June 4, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 317 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Angels are immortal. They never die. That should go without saying. And yet you said it. Verse 6 isn't referencing the angels. it is referencing the earth and all that God has created on it. If you really think about your response here, it doesn't make any sense. Verses 1-5 don't mention earth whatsoever. The earth and created things mentioned in 7-14, are they part of verse 6? Secondly, God has made a decree that will not pass away. It doesn't say that the decree is that nothing else will pass away. Psa 148:6 KJV - He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass. It's a little difficult to translate what you mean here, but I'm guessing that you are trying to say: "it doesn't say that something else won't pass, just that the decree won't pass away." So what is the decree that won't pass away? His decree for the animals and rest of the created order regarding their duration will not pass away. So, now you are saying that the earth, being part of the created order, won't pass? That's my line. But, welcome to the truth, brother . You gotta hang on, though. It can be quite a roller coaster ride. However: Jhn 8:31-32 KJV - Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus clearly said, "Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." So even Jesus does not see this current earth as eternal. Well, that is if the heaven and earth he is talking about is this physical ball we are floating through space on. He certainly would have known about Psalm 148:6. Are you sure he's talking about the physical heaven, stars, earth, sun, moon and such that will pass? or could he be talking about something figurative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted June 4, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 597 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,116 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,847 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2014 Well, that is if the heaven and earth he is talking about is this physical ball we are floating through space on. He certainly would have known about Psalm 148:6. Are you sure he's talking about the physical heaven, stars, earth, sun, moon and such that will pass? or could he be talking about something figurative? Yes he did have knowledge of Psalm..... and Shiloh is trying to tell you that your thoughts on that scripture does not follow other things in the Bible, so if what you say is the real meaning of that verse, then the Bible has conflicting scripture..... What physical heaven, stars, earth, sun, moon and such would he be talking about if not the one we life on/in? Speaking of something figuratively would still require something to refer to, so what could he possibly be talking about. What could Peter be talking about when he says that the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire. What do you do with those things in your theology. When one takes individual pieces of scripture and decides what it means, it seems that what we decide must also agree with all other scripture or something is wrong. If we believe that it's the Bible itself that is wrong then we have a really huge problem in trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 If you really think about your response here, it doesn't make any sense. Verses 1-5 don't mention earth whatsoever. The earth and created things mentioned in 7-14, are they part of verse 6? Yes, that is true, but the truth of what I said isn't really affected by that. The sun, moon stars, the earth and all it contains are temporal in that they will endure until God renovates the earth. It's a little difficult to translate what you mean here, but I'm guessing that you are trying to say: "it doesn't say that something else won't pass, just that the decree won't pass away." So what is the decree that won't pass away? What is being said that God's creation will last as long as He has decreed it will last and that decree will not pass away. In other words, the world is under God's sovereign control and that cannot be altered or negated. So, now you are saying that the earth, being part of the created order, won't pass? That's my line. But, welcome to the truth, brother . You gotta hang on, though. It can be quite a roller coaster ride. No, that's not what I said. What I am saying is that the earth will not pass away until God says, "time's up" and it passes away. It is the decree that will not pass away. Well, that is if the heaven and earth he is talking about is this physical ball we are floating through space on. He certainly would have known about Psalm 148:6. Are you sure he's talking about the physical heaven, stars, earth, sun, moon and such that will pass? or could he be talking about something figurative? Jesus is referring to the earth, the planet and the physical heaven. To interpret it figurative would destroy the import of what He is saying. He is contrasting the temporal nature of this creation with the eternal nature of His Word (s). There is no reason whatsoever to twist and pervert the text to refer to something figurative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mevosper Posted June 4, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 317 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 A number of earth figuratives are used in the bible: Man is described as earth: Job 10:8-9 KJV - Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me. - Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? Ecc 12:7 KJV - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Earth is the material from which altars were made: Exo 20:24 KJV - An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee. Other verses where heaven and earth relate not to the physical creation: Isa 1:2 KJV - Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. Isa 51:16 KJV - And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. God is speaking to Israel through Isaiah. God is talking about how he gave the Old Covenant to Israel. He gave his law to them as a foundation for what was to come later. Christ, with his appearance, death, and resurrection fulfilled the old law, Old Covenant, old heaven and old earth. A new Covenant was created. A new heaven and new earth. Heb 12:26-28 KJV - Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. - And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. - Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: The author of Hebrews is confirming that the old things, the old law or "old earth" has been shaken/changed. Also, the old "heaven" that was inaccessible to man before is passed and a way to heaven, or a "new heaven", is created. One that is accessible through the blood of Christ. The bible is full of figurative language. Should we assume that the children of Israel literally popped out of a large boulder: Deu 32:18 KJV - Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. Concerning 2 Peter 3, the same sort of language is seen in Deut: Deu 32:22 KJV - For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. But here, the receivers of this passage are the children of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 A number of earth figuratives are used in the bible: Doesn't matter. What matters is how Jesus was intending to be understood. The onus is on you to provide from the text, all textual indicators that show Jesus was not talking about the literal heaven and earth. If you cannot provide those textual indicators then Jesus is, by default, understood to be speaking of the literal heaven and earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted June 5, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 597 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,116 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,847 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2014 *****shakes head and walks away****** A number of earth figuratives are used in the bible: Man is described as earth: Job 10:8-9 KJV - Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me. - Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? Ecc 12:7 KJV - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Earth is the material from which altars were made: Exo 20:24 KJV - An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee. Other verses where heaven and earth relate not to the physical creation: Isa 1:2 KJV - Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. Isa 51:16 KJV - And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. God is speaking to Israel through Isaiah. God is talking about how he gave the Old Covenant to Israel. He gave his law to them as a foundation for what was to come later. Christ, with his appearance, death, and resurrection fulfilled the old law, Old Covenant, old heaven and old earth. A new Covenant was created. A new heaven and new earth. Heb 12:26-28 KJV - Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. - And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. - Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: The author of Hebrews is confirming that the old things, the old law or "old earth" has been shaken/changed. Also, the old "heaven" that was inaccessible to man before is passed and a way to heaven, or a "new heaven", is created. One that is accessible through the blood of Christ. The bible is full of figurative language. Should we assume that the children of Israel literally popped out of a large boulder: Deu 32:18 KJV - Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. Concerning 2 Peter 3, the same sort of language is seen in Deut: Deu 32:22 KJV - For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. But here, the receivers of this passage are the children of Israel. totally different context.... I think I'm done with the conversation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mevosper Posted June 5, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 317 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 A number of earth figuratives are used in the bible: Doesn't matter. What matters is how Jesus was intending to be understood. The onus is on you to provide from the text, all textual indicators that show Jesus was not talking about the literal heaven and earth. If you cannot provide those textual indicators then Jesus is, by default, understood to be speaking of the literal heaven and earth. 1Co 2:1-16 KJV - And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. - For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. - And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: - That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. - Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: - Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. - But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. - For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. - Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. - For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. *****shakes head and walks away****** A number of earth figuratives are used in the bible: .... totally different context.... I think I'm done with the conversation... Jhn 3:8-11 KJV - The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? - Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 A number of earth figuratives are used in the bible: Doesn't matter. What matters is how Jesus was intending to be understood. The onus is on you to provide from the text, all textual indicators that show Jesus was not talking about the literal heaven and earth. If you cannot provide those textual indicators then Jesus is, by default, understood to be speaking of the literal heaven and earth. 1Co 2:1-16 KJV - And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. - For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. - And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: - That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. - Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: - Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. - But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. - For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. - Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. - For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. That passage doesn't apply. You made a claim that Jesus' words were figurative when He referred to heaven and earth passing away. You made a textual argument and it is up to you provide the textual evidence that backs up that claim. Trying to use the Bible to claim I am rejecting Scripture simply because you can't provide the requested information only demonstrates immaturity. The bottom line is that Jesus said this earth and the current heavens above it are temporal and you are helpless to prove otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted June 5, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 597 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,116 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,847 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2014 A number of earth figuratives are used in the bible: Doesn't matter. What matters is how Jesus was intending to be understood. The onus is on you to provide from the text, all textual indicators that show Jesus was not talking about the literal heaven and earth. If you cannot provide those textual indicators then Jesus is, by default, understood to be speaking of the literal heaven and earth. 1Co 2:1-16 KJV - And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. - For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. - And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: - That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. - Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: - Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. - But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. - For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. - Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. - For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. *****shakes head and walks away****** A number of earth figuratives are used in the bible: .... totally different context.... I think I'm done with the conversation... Jhn 3:8-11 KJV - The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? - Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. I can't go on without commenting on your personal form of intelligence..... The TOS does not allow me to do that so I must drop out of the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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