mevosper Posted June 5, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 317 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 I can't go on without commenting on your personal form of intelligence..... The TOS does not allow me to do that so I must drop out of the conversation. Is it any wonder that non-believers are turned off by today's "Christian"? Even on an Internet board, the self rules rather than the love of Christ. Bravo, brother, that's a slam dunk. That passage doesn't apply. You made a claim that Jesus' words were figurative when He referred to heaven and earth passing away. You made a textual argument and it is up to you provide the textual evidence that backs up that claim. Trying to use the Bible to claim I am rejecting Scripture simply because you can't provide the requested information only demonstrates immaturity. The bottom line is that Jesus said this earth and the current heavens above it are temporal and you are helpless to prove otherwise. Who is this passage talking about, and how do you know? Rev 19:11-16 KJV - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. - His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. - And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. - And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 That passage doesn't apply. You made a claim that Jesus' words were figurative when He referred to heaven and earth passing away. You made a textual argument and it is up to you provide the textual evidence that backs up that claim. Trying to use the Bible to claim I am rejecting Scripture simply because you can't provide the requested information only demonstrates immaturity. The bottom line is that Jesus said this earth and the current heavens above it are temporal and you are helpless to prove otherwise. Who is this passage talking about, and how do you know? Rev 19:11-16 KJV - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. - His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. - And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. - And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. irrelevant. don't change the subject. Show me where Jesus was being "figurative" when he said that "heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." Was Jesus also being figurative about His words? Show me figurative indicators in that verse out of Matthew. Don't divert away from the topic by throwing other Scriptures that have nothing to do with your suggestion that heaven and earth are figurative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezekiel Posted June 5, 2014 Group: Seeker Followers: 2 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 315 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 60 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1959 Share Posted June 5, 2014 At Christ comming it will be like a new star has bursted with brightness with ten thousand with him as for earth it shall become a moon for the new earth, and at the new moon they will look on them that did not follow Christ or the Commandments. Gods says the Prince will make peace offerings and sacrifices and on the sabath as old Israel did but this temple is in heaven and many will see in comming in the heavens and know but sinners in zion will be a fraid and fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mevosper Posted June 6, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 317 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 irrelevant. don't change the subject. Show me where Jesus was being "figurative" when he said that "heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." Was Jesus also being figurative about His words? Show me figurative indicators in that verse out of Matthew. Don't divert away from the topic by throwing other Scriptures that have nothing to do with your suggestion that heaven and earth are figurative. You are absolutely correct. No amount of worldly wisdom is going to help anyone discover, or reveal, the spiritual things of God. I've posted the scriptures. If you choose to ignore, that's not my concern anymore. This thread has actually proven the OP. 1Co 3:13 KJV - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 irrelevant. don't change the subject. Show me where Jesus was being "figurative" when he said that "heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." Was Jesus also being figurative about His words? Show me figurative indicators in that verse out of Matthew. Don't divert away from the topic by throwing other Scriptures that have nothing to do with your suggestion that heaven and earth are figurative. You are absolutely correct. No amount of worldly wisdom is going to help anyone discover, or reveal, the spiritual things of God. I've posted the scriptures. If you choose to ignore, that's not my concern anymore. This thread has actually proven the OP. 1Co 3:13 KJV - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. The Scriptures you posted have NOTHING to do with the subject. That's the point. Jesus said that heaven and earth will pass away. You suggested that Jesus was using heaven and earth figuratively. You have not shown once why that would be so. You posted a whole lot of scripture that had nothing to do with what you suggested. You haven't presented anything spiritual. The bottom line is that you're wrong and you have been wrong the entire time. This earth is not going to last forever and even Jesus said so. You are calling Jesus a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mevosper Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 317 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) The bottom line is that you're wrong and you have been wrong the entire time. not wrong and not blind and not destroyed. physical earth and heaven will be here looooooonng after we turn back into dust. Psa 104:5 KJV - Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever (for ever: hebrew words ad and olam. This is like double-forever. forever plus another forever). Ecc 1:4 KJV - One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. (for ever: hebrew word olam) And just for the Record, Christ is the son of God, he does not lie. Edited June 7, 2014 by mevosper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 The bottom line is that you're wrong and you have been wrong the entire time. not wrong and not blind and not destroyed. physical earth and heaven will be here looooooonng after we turn back into dust. Psa 104:5 KJV - Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever (for ever: hebrew words ad and olam. This is like double-forever. forever plus another forever). Ecc 1:4 KJV - One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. (for ever: hebrew word olam) And just for the Record, Christ is the son of God, he does not lie. The problem is that the Hebrew word olam doesn't use forever to mean, "for all eternity." Olam is forever but is limited to the current earth. The Bible teaches that this earth will be destroyed by fire and completely renovated nothing we see here will be in the New Heavens and New Earth. Jesus said that this earth and the current heavens above will pass away at some point ,but that His words will never pass away and you have been running from and ignoring that verse in this entire discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,788 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2014 I think if you go back and read that covenant (which I just did), you will find that God did not say that he would never destroy the earth and everything on it again..... he said that he wouldn't do it with a flood. Specifically said he would not let the waters destroy all live. Didn't say anything about never destroying life or the earth itself with fire..... just not with a flood..... this did let us not fear total destruction just because it rains. but to transfer that covenant to directly contradicting Jesus own words is borderline foolishness in my own personal view. You can disagree with that if you will..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mevosper Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 317 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 The problem is that the Hebrew word olam doesn't use forever to mean, "for all eternity." Olam is forever but is limited to the current earth. Actually, the contention is not on the word 'for ever/olam'. The contention is with the outcomes of the interpretations for which 'for ever/olam' is used. Firstly, 2 examples: Exo 3:15, and Exo 21:6 Exo 3:15 KJV - And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Exo 21:6 KJV - Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. olam is used in both verses. In 3:15, we are expecting God's name to be Jehovah for all eternity. However, in 21:6, the correct and agreeable conclusion/interpretation is that the servant will be with the master until the master let him go. (See Deut 15:12-18). This was because every 6 years, servants were to be set free. But if the servant wanted to stay for whatever reason, the awl through the ear was a mark to annul that 6-year statute, and the servant was with the master in perpetuity. The master then had complete control as to when the servant was allowed to leave. This didn't seem to be an issue since the servant wanted to be where the master was. Seems like a type of Christ/believer relationship. Here are a couple of more examples with olam: 1Sa 1:22 KJV - But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever. (olam translated for ever. i would say Samuel is with and appearing before, the LORD, and there abiding for ever). Jon 2:6 KJV - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. (olam translated for ever. Jonah, as far as he was concerned was dead. The earth/fish had swallowed him up. He was there, in the grave, for ever. No man could get him out, but only God could break the grave, death and hell, and 'for ever' to bring Jonah back to life. Olam is used to show the destitution, the "grave" situation, that Jonah was in. And to show the mighty power of God's hand. He WAS there for ever unless God intervened.) The outcome concerning the perpetuity of the earth and heavens: should this physical earth and heaven not be destroyed by fire, it creates a huge twist in a large number of end-times beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mevosper Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 317 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 mevosper I am in agreement with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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