Why rewards if heaven is the assured goal?

[Cross Reference]

 

 

 

Grace is a promise.

 

More later. . . .

Yes, a promise to all who will receive it. Grace is not extended to those who reject Christ.

 

Nor to those who reject obedience in the afterwards of their salvation.

 

 

Correction, GRACE  is a done deal (past tense) for all who receive Jesus Christ as LORD, lovingly submitting to HIM as Master.

 

If their receiving HIM as LORD, really was the complete surrender of giving HIM control of their lives; THEN THERE WILL NOT BE A REJECTION OF OBEDIENCE LATER, because that kind of Faith genuinely brings the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the kind of LOVE for the LORD, which ONLY comes from GOD.

 

No. Grace is not an incarnation. The Word can only be that by the new birth. Grace is the venue for the life of the Father by Jesus Christ through our "yearning" for it.

Believing is a variable and can be totally absent without such "yearning". Being grounded and settled in our faith secures [seals] us to God. That is why the warning to the Christian to examine himself on a continual basis. . . . to draw near to God.

 

"Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;  . . . .

. . . . . If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,

which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;

whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Colossians 1:4,5; 23 (KJV)

 

The tiny prep. "if" is used 600 + times in the KJV NT.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Cross Reference

[VCO]

Howdy,

 

I have only been on this site about three days, and so far I like it.  Prior  to this site I posted on:  http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/  , and before that I posted on:  http://forum.bible-discussion.com/  for about two years.  All Three are very similar with a few minor differences.  So on this site I found something different that I am not sure what it means. 

 

What do the small green boxes mean, that show up in the lower right corner of the posts a day or two after posting them, and they usually have a white 1 or 2 in them?

Edited June 23, 2014 by VCO

[enoob57]

that how many people have died after reading the posts... no, no, no having little baby goats (kidding)

It is people who respond positively to the post as being worthy of recognition... Love, Steven

[VCO]

 

 

 

 

Grace is a promise.

 

More later. . . .

Yes, a promise to all who will receive it. Grace is not extended to those who reject Christ.

 

Nor to those who reject obedience in the afterwards of their salvation.

 

 

Correction, GRACE  is a done deal (past tense) for all who receive Jesus Christ as LORD, lovingly submitting to HIM as Master.

 

If their receiving HIM as LORD, really was the complete surrender of giving HIM control of their lives; THEN THERE WILL NOT BE A REJECTION OF OBEDIENCE LATER, because that kind of Faith genuinely brings the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the kind of LOVE for the LORD, which ONLY comes from GOD.

 

No. Grace is not an incarnation. The Word can only be that by the new birth. Grace is the venue for the life of the Father by Jesus Christ through our "yearning" for it.

Believing is a variable and can be totally absent without such "yearning". Being grounded and settled in our faith secures [seals] us to God. That is why the warning to the Christian to examine himself on a continual basis. . . . to draw near to God.

 

"Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;  . . . .

. . . . . If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,

which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;

whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Colossians 1:4,5; 23 (KJV)

 

The tiny prep. "if" is used 600 + times in the KJV NT.

 

 

No, I definately was not talking about the incarnation but RATHER, I was talking about SALVATION itself, that comes by GRACE (receiving what we cannot earn and do not deserve) through Faith.

 

I guess I should have posted the verse that I was referring to, but I thought it was common knowledge:

 

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)

⁸  For by grace you have been saved (past tense) through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

⁹  not of works, lest anyone should boast. 

 

 

And I think you are serious confused about the new birth if you mean by that term "born again" as I do.

 

Born again or the new birth is a WORK of the Holy Spirit.  It is the very moment we receive the gift of faith, receiving Jesus Christ as LORD, which means MASTER.  AND at the very moment the Holy Spirit brings our once dead to the will of God, human spirit to Eternal Life, never to die again.

 

John 3:3 (NKJV)

³  Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

 

John 3:5-6 (NKJV) 

⁵  Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

⁶  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

 

Quite literally the Holy Spirit births our human spirit to become Eternally Alive.

 

John 3:36 (NIV) 

³⁶  Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." 

 

1 John 5:11 (NKJV)

¹¹  And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 

 

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (NKJV)

¹²  For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

¹³  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 

 

At the moment of receiving "saving faith" the Holy Spirit also immerses or baptizes us into the spiritual Body of Christ.

Edited June 23, 2014 by VCO

[VCO]

 

If their receiving HIM as LORD, really was the complete surrender of giving HIM control of their lives; THEN THERE WILL NOT BE A REJECTION OF OBEDIENCE LATER, because that kind of Faith genuinely brings the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the kind of LOVE for the LORD, which ONLY comes from GOD.

 

"Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;  . . . .

. . . . . If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,

which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;

whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Colossians 1:4,5; 23 (KJV)

 

The tiny prep. "if" is used 600 + times in the KJV NT.

 

NOW let's look at what else Paul said, and what John said.

 

2 Thessalonians 3:4 (GW)

⁴  The Lord gives us confidence that you are doing and will continue to do what we ordered you to do. 

 

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)

¹⁹  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 

 

1 John 2:3-5 (NKJV)

³  Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

⁴  He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

⁵  But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 

 

First of all you need to know that the word "keep" and "keeps" are in the Greek Perfect primary verb tense.  We have no such verb tense in English.  That Greek Perfect primary verb tense implies a continual lifestyle of striving to KEEP.  The second thing that you NEED to know to understand this portion of Scripture correctly, is that the term "know Him", is a reference to the born again, inner personal, LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ, as we willingly and lovingly submit to His Lordship.  And Third, to fully understand this Scripture, you need to understand that the term "we are in Him" is a reference to the born again experience of having been immersed or baptized into the spiritual Body of Christ, the moment we first genuinely believed.  NOW you may be able to fully under stand verse 4.  Genuine born again Salvation produces a continual lifestyle of striving to keep His Commandments; therefore, obviously the one who does not continually strive to keep His commandments, is a liar, when he says  "I know Him" .  The evidence that one has become born again is in the continuous lifestyle of obedience.  Are we perfect at it?  NO, but that is why the verb "confess" in 1 John 1:9 is also in the Greek Perfect tense, implying that confessing each new sin is a continuous part of our Christian lifestyle.  Therefore an unwillingness to confess sin, would also be a evidence that one is lying about genuinely "KNOWING HIM" (born again).

 

When one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, one also receives God's (agapaô) Love within himself.  It is that godly form of LOVE for HIM that produces the continuous desire to obey God.

 

1 John 5:2-3 (HCSB)

²  This is how we know that we love God’s children when we love God and obey His commands.

³  For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden, 

 

No (agapaô) Love for GOD = NOT born again, yet. 

Edited June 23, 2014 by VCO

[Cross Reference]

 

 

 

"Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;  . . . .

. . . . . If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,

which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;

whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Colossians 1:4,5; 23 (KJV)

 

The tiny prep. "if" is used 600 + times in the KJV NT.

 

NOW let's look at what else Paul said, and what John said.

 

2 Thessalonians 3:4 (GW)

⁴  The Lord gives us confidence that you are doing and will continue to do what we ordered you to do. 

Interesting . .

 

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)

¹⁹  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 

 

 

1 John 2:3-5 (NKJV)

³  Now by this we know that we know Him,___ if___ we keep His commandments.

⁴  He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

⁵  But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 

 

I told you to what out for those tiny  prep's, didn't I? . . .

 

First of all you need to know that the word "keep" and "keeps" are in the Greek Perfect primary verb tense.  We have no such verb tense in English.  That Greek Perfect primary verb tense implies a continual lifestyle of striving to KEEP.  The second thing that you NEED to know to understand this portion of Scripture correctly, is that the term "know Him", is a reference to the born again, inner personal, LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ, as we willingly and lovingly submit to His Lordship.  And Third, to fully understand this Scripture, you need to understand that the term "we are in Him" is a reference to the born again experience of having been immersed or baptized into the spiritual Body of Christ, the moment we first genuinely believed.  NOW you may be able to fully under stand verse 4.  Genuine born again Salvation produces a continual lifestyle of striving to keep His Commandments; therefore, obviously the one who does not continually strive to keep His commandments, is a liar, when he says  "I know Him" .  The evidence that one has become born again is in the continuous lifestyle of obedience.  Are we perfect at it?  NO, but that is why the verb "confess" in 1 John 1:9 is also in the Greek Perfect tense, implying that confessing each new sin is a continuous part of our Christian lifestyle.  Therefore an unwillingness to confess sin, would also be a evidence that one is lying about genuinely "KNOWING HIM" (born again),

May I ask, whose commentary are you quoting or receiving your "opinion"? Oh, and what Greek source are you using? Thank you.

 

[VCO]

 

 

 

 

VCO

First of all you need to know that the word "keep" and "keeps" are in the Greek Perfect primary verb tense.  We have no such verb tense in English.  That Greek Perfect primary verb tense implies a continual lifestyle of striving to KEEP.  The second thing that you NEED to know to understand this portion of Scripture correctly, is that the term "know Him", is a reference to the born again, inner personal, LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ, as we willingly and lovingly submit to His Lordship.  And Third, to fully understand this Scripture, you need to understand that the term "we are in Him" is a reference to the born again experience of having been immersed or baptized into the spiritual Body of Christ, the moment we first genuinely believed.  NOW you may be able to fully under stand verse 4.  Genuine born again Salvation produces a continual lifestyle of striving to keep His Commandments; therefore, obviously the one who does not continually strive to keep His commandments, is a liar, when he says  "I know Him" .  The evidence that one has become born again is in the continuous lifestyle of obedience.  Are we perfect at it?  NO, but that is why the verb "confess" in 1 John 1:9 is also in the Greek Perfect tense, implying that confessing each new sin is a continuous part of our Christian lifestyle.  Therefore an unwillingness to confess sin, would also be a evidence that one is lying about genuinely "KNOWING HIM" (born again),

 

 

Cross Reference:  May I ask, whose commentary are you quoting or receiving your "opinion"? Oh, and what Greek source are you using? Thank you.

 

 

The "IF" you pointed out belongs there.  It is not saying we are saved "if" and when we continually keep His commandments.  It is is clearly saying we can and will know that we are truly born again because the real McCoy will continually produce a desire to obey.  The one who does not continually strive to obey, proves by his actions that he never was genuinely born again in the first place.

 

As for the teachers that have had the most influence on my spiritual growth, Dr. John MacArthur Jr. via his "Grace to you" radio program had the most, but there were quite a few others.

 

If you are unfamiliar with Dr. MacArthur, here is his credentials:

 

-  Dr. John F. MacArthur, Jr., (born 1940) is the pastor of Grace Community Church (GCC) in Sun Valley, California, as well as the President of both The Master's College and The Master's Seminary. His first two years of college were spent at Bob Jones University. His undergraduate work was completed at Los Angeles Pacific College, followed by seminary training at Talbot Theological Seminary. Grace Church has grown from 450 members when MacArthur accepted the pastorate in 1969, to over 12,000 today. Much of MacArthur's influence is derived from his sermons that are edited and aired over more than 700 stations daily across the U.S. and Canada on the "Grace to You" (GTY) radio program. First aired in 1977, GTY now has a full-time U.S. staff of approximately 45, and has produced and distributed more than ten million audio cassette lessons. In addition, the "Grace to You Weekend" broadcast now airs on almost 100 outlets. MacArthur is also a prolific "writer," authoring a New Testament Commentary series, various issue-oriented books, and most recently, a study Bible (the MacArthur Study Bible). -

 

Here is a list of most of the Theologians that influenced my spirit growth:

 

Dr. John MacArthur, Jr.

Dr. Ed Young, Sr.

Dr. Charles Stanley

Dr. Gil Rugh

Dr. Chuck Swindoll

Dr. Ben Haden

Dr. Adrian Rodgers

Dr. Richard Lee

Dr. Zola Levitt

Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost

Dr. Walter Martin

Dave Hunt

John Ankerberg

 

As well as local Pastors that you have never heard of (we moved a lot).

 

I am a Conservative Evangelical and I prefer non-denominational Community or Bible Churches.  I was raised Lutheran Missouri Synod, but after I was born again, I found their sermons WAY TOO SHORT, and those 15 minute sermons seemed like a starvation diet, as I was extremely hungry to be taught the Word of GOD.  A one hour sermon seems like the right amount of spiritual food per serving to me.  Besides the Community Churches and Bible Churches that I have been involved in, I have also been taught the Word of GOD in two Evangelical Free Churches, and one Independent Baptist Church.

 

I am not sure why you want to know the Bible Resources that I use, other than you want to make sure they are not from off the wall ministries or psuedo-christian cults.  Sorry, but if that is what you thought, you will find that I use the most popular Mainline Christianity Resource Library, WORDsearch 10.  When I bought my first computer, I was just starting as a Volunteer Protestant Chaplain in a California super-max prison.  So the Lord put it on my heart to buy some good Bible Software.  So in Windows 3.11 days I had Quickverse, then I went to PC Study Bible, then  a small version of LOGOS, then I found a copy of Bible Explorer 3 with a large Bible Library real cheap in ROSS for LESS.  What a find   I have added to that one over the years as the LORD and our finances permitted; because I continued to serve HIM in the Prison ministry as a Volunteer Chaplain for 15 years.  Bible Explorer became WORDsearch and now I am up to WORDsearch 10.  Most of the upgrades were free, and I took advantage of their free books, and outstanding sales whenever possible.

 

In my WORDsearch 10, here are the resources that I use most often:

 

BIBLES:  KJV, ASV, NKJV, NASB, HCSB, NRSV, ESV, NIV, GW, & YLT

 

COMMENTARIES:

MacArthur New Testament Commentary

The MacArthur Bible Commentary

Bible Knowledge Commentary

Believers Bible Commentary

J. Vernon McGee's Thru the Bible

 

GREEK DICTIONARYS:

Strong's

Vine's

NASB Greek-Hebrew Dictionary

 

 

Does that answer your questions?

Edited June 23, 2014 by VCO

[VCO]

Cross Reference said:

 

Your last post is different than your previous post. At first, there was no mention of repentance, just that if we disobey, our lives no longer rest under His grace.

I agree with your last post, but notice the key is to remain in Him, continuously checking ourselves to see if remain in faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5 

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

 

 

 

Let's clarify exactly what your Position is.  It appears you are saying that you personally believe that,

"Salvation is Grace through faith PLUS examining yourself frequently."

 

If that is what you believe, then what you believe is a TOTAL false Doctrine, and a Contradiction of what the Scriptures actually say!

 

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)

⁶  Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace. 

 

Now notice what GOD says here:

 

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)

⁶  "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

 

THEREFORE, if we can find out how GOD saved one man, we will know how he saved all who are saved and those in the future who will be saved.

 

Romans 4:3-5 (NKJV) 

³  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

⁴  Now to him who works, the wages are  not counted as grace but as debt.

⁵  But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,  

 

That means SALVATION is GRACE through Faith, PLUS NOTHING ELSE.  In fact it is a FREE GIFT.

 

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV)

⁸  For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

⁹  not of works, lest anyone should boast. 

¹⁰  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 

 

You are confusing Salvation which is by HIS GRACE, with our Christian Walk of good works; which we do because we have been saved via the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

 

Salvation by GRACE is receiving what we do not deserve and CANNOT earn.

 

God's MERCY is NOT receiving what we do deserve.

Edited June 25, 2014 by VCO

[enoob57]

Here is a list of most of the Theologians that influenced my spirit growth:

 

Dr. John MacArthur, Jr.

Dr. Ed Young, Sr.

Dr. Charles Stanley

Dr. Gil Rugh

Dr. Chuck Swindoll

Dr. Ben Haden

Dr. Adrian Rodgers

Dr. Richard Lee

Dr. Zola Levitt

Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost

Dr. Walter Martin

Dave Hunt

John Ankerberg

Wow these are mine as well... welcome by the way Love, Steven

[VCO]

 

Here is a list of most of the Theologians that influenced my spirit growth:

 

Dr. John MacArthur, Jr.

Dr. Ed Young, Sr.

Dr. Charles Stanley

Dr. Gil Rugh

Dr. Chuck Swindoll

Dr. Ben Haden

Dr. Adrian Rodgers

Dr. Richard Lee

Dr. Zola Levitt

Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost

Dr. Walter Martin

Dave Hunt

John Ankerberg

Wow these are mine as well... welcome by the way Love, Steven

 

 

YES, AMEN, I have found them to be very sound Biblically, and a genuine Blessing to be taught by.