The word 'olam'

[Butch5]

Butch,

 

The reason I say hell is temporary, there are several. One, the lake of fire is called the second death. If one doesn't die then it isn't the second death.

 

"Second death" doesn't mean that people who have already died are going to die again.    There are two resurrections for the righteous and two deaths for the wicked.  The second death is an expression that simply expresses the final fate of the wicked their complete and eternal separation from God.

 

Two, Jeremiah's prophecy that Gehenna will be made holy to the Lord.

 

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.

39 "The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath.

40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever." (Jer 31:38-40 NKJ)

 

as i said before you are pushing Jesus' metaphor too far.

 

The third reason is when I look at the creation account of man in Gen. 2:7 I see that man is a body created from the dust into which God breathed His breath/spirit of life and those two combined became a living soul. 

 

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

 

Solomon said (Ecc 3) that man and animal all have one breath/spirit and when a man dies the breath/spirit returns to God. We know from Gen 2:7 that that breath/spirit in man is the breath/spirit of life. Since it returns to God and the body returns to dust, there is nothing left to spend an eternity in hell.

 

That is really bad exegesis.   We all return to God in one of two ways, either as His children or the subjects of His judgment.   Ecc. 3 is not all of the theology about death that the Bible contains on the subject so it is not appropriate to act as if that verse is the final word on the issue.  Nothing about that verse indicates that Hell is temporary.

Actually, it's good exegesis. The doctrine of "Eternal Conscious Torment" is base in on dualism, the idea that there is something in man that lives on after the body dies, some say it's the spirit some say it's the soul. However, that's not what the Scriptures teach. That idea actually comes from Greek philosophy. A study of what man is from the Scriptures will reveal that man is a physical being that is animagted by the breath/spirit of God. As I pointed out Gen 2 gives the creation of man and says that God created man from the dust of the ground. So, whatever man is, comes from the ground. Gen 2 then says that God breathed the breath/spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. We can see from this that a soul is made up of two things, the body and the breath/spirit of God. God said to Adam, 'dust you are and to dust you shall return.' Adam, was dust. When God retrieves His breath/spirit of life the man returns to the dust. There is nothing left to suffer for eternity.

 

The Scriptures are replete with statements about the wicked saying things like, they shall be no more, they perish, they are cut down, they are consumed, they burn up, and things like that. ECT is not taught in the Sriptures.

[dscapp]

Dscapp, are you certian hell and the lake of fire are one in the same? Check out revelation 20:14. Depending on the version you look it up init will either say death and hell or death and hades. Hades in greek literaly is hell. Also, as I said in another post in order to truely study the word of God we must look at ALL scriptures containing the topic to gain better understanding. Jesus dont just mention gehenna only. From my count there are 46 verses Jesus speaks about hell, 49 that speak on its current location and 18 about the fire of hell. There maybe more. There is a brother named bill wiese(I got alot of the verses from his video) who has a testamony you should check out. Google either his name or 23 minutes in hell. There are multiple videos all over the internet including youtube and his own website for his ministry. He has alot of scriptures about hell and some good insight.

Here are a few verses that illustrate that "hell" is forever and ever. Rev. 14:11, luke 16:23, jude 1:13, jude 1:7, mark 9:48, rev 20:10, matt 25:41, matt 18:8, 2 thess. 1:8-9, there are more verses than this however if you are not presuaded by this number that hell is forever I dont think if I listed all of them you would be presuaded either. Accepting hell is eternal punishment with no end is for some hard to accept, but the bible teaches that it is indeed forever. Check out that video as he has a very exaustive list of scriptures and very much insight as well as explinations that I think will clarify some things for you.

Also I would like to point out that the teaching that hell is not eternal is not an old teaching, its fairly new on the timeline of the church. Any new teachings should be studied in depth before accepting as truth.

 

Let's take a look at these words..Hell, Gehenna, Lake of Fire, Hades

 

1. The word hell is simply used as a metaphor to describe separation from God.

2. Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place in the afterlife described with two different names.

3. Hades is the abode of the dead and the grave for ALL people, it is not considered hell.

4. Out of those last three places, hell is best described as Gehenna/Lake of Fire.

 

Dscapp, another thing that just came to mind is at the time Jesus refered to gehenna then the fire was ongoing and never went oit day or night. A lot has happened in history since then. The refrence was that the fire never went out... back then.

 

Isa 66:24, Jesus was painting what is called a picture imagery of what it feels like to be separated from God. But that specific place in Jerusulum will eventually be main Holy to the Lord.

 

Jeremiah's prophecy that Gehenna will be made holy to the Lord.

 

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.

39 "The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath.

40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever." (Jer 31:38-40 NKJ)

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good afternoon Butch. I don't understand something then. Why have christians in general been fighting over this hell forever subject for centuries if we can never return to the original text. There's always a loophole to jump over. Why can't christians just agree that we must wait until we meet the Lord face to face and ask him.

You are the one discussing the subject brother, you tell me..... 

 

 

Ego's and belief systems.

 

The Bible is not ambiguous at all about the eternality of hell.  It isn't a mystery.  

 

When you say Hell, do you mean Gehenna?

 

That is the analogy that Jesus used of Hell.

 

Yes, I that what you mean when you say Hell?

 

When I say Hell, I am referring to a place of eternal unending fire and everlasting torment that will go on without end, forever.  I believe that is the picture given by Gehenna.  So yes.

 

Ok, but Jeremiah said this place would one day be made holy to the Lord.

 

Yes, but that misses the point.   What you want to avoid in hermeneutics is pushing a metaphor too far.   Jesus was using the perpetual nature of the burning dump to make a point about the nature of Hell.   The physical, geographical location of Gehenna doesn't have to exist for all eternity for what Jesus said about the unending nature of Hell to be true.

 

He didn't say Hell, He said Gehenna. There's no reason to think it's a metaphor. The bodies will literally be in Gehenna. Isaiah tells us that in the kingdom those leaving the temple will see the corpses burning.

 

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(Isa 66:22-1 KJV)

 

This is the place that Jesus said the wicked would be but take note to what is burning, it's carcases not spirits or souls or ghosts. It's flesh bodies that are burning.

 

 

Gehenna will exist fro eternity, it just won't always be burning.

[Butch5]

 

Like wise I know that the Life given to the believe is eternal not because it's called aionios life but rather because Jesus said,

 

35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:35-36 NKJ)

 

Jesus said the sons of the resurrection die no more, that is eternal.

 

Nice. Good scripture Butch5!

 

Thanks!

[dscapp]

 

 

Like wise I know that the Life given to the believe is eternal not because it's called aionios life but rather because Jesus said,

 

35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:35-36 NKJ)

 

Jesus said the sons of the resurrection die no more, that is eternal.

 

Nice. Good scripture Butch5!

 

Thanks!

 

 

Yeah man, you really came through on that. Now one must have a strong case for temporary hell and we're all set. We'll get there.

[dscapp]

He didn't say Hell, He said Gehenna. There's no reason to think it's a metaphor. The bodies will literally be in Gehenna. Isaiah tells us that in the kingdom those leaving the temple will see the corpses burning.

 

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(Isa 66:22-1 KJV)

 

This is the place that Jesus said the wicked would be but take note to what is burning, it's carcases not spirits or souls or ghosts. It's flesh bodies that are burning.

 

 

Gehenna will exist fro eternity, it just won't always be burning.

 

Truth.

[dscapp]

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 "The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath.
40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever." (Jer 31:38-40 NKJ)

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

 

Good afternoon Butch. I don't understand something then. Why have christians in general been fighting over this hell forever subject for centuries if we can never return to the original text. There's always a loophole to jump over. Why can't christians just agree that we must wait until we meet the Lord face to face and ask him.

You are the one discussing the subject brother, you tell me..... 

 

 

Ego's and belief systems.

 

The Bible is not ambiguous at all about the eternality of hell.  It isn't a mystery.  

 

 

[Floatingaxe]

 

I think the reason there is so much confusion is simply that many don't put forth the effort to study it. I know lots of Christians who don't pick up their Bible between Sundays. Also, and probably more importantly is that th There has been so much error brought into the church that many simply don't have the time to weed through all of the error and do all of the research that is needed to find what is actually the truth and what is error. When I began to study the Ante-Nicene church I was surprised to find that much of what is taught today they new nothing about. Sometimes I say it almost looks like a different religion that we have today than what was originally taught. 

 

What are your thoughts of hell being temporary and life with Christ being forever.

There seems to be some confusion with this, since both are referring to afterlife.

How do we know life with Christ will be forever since hell is not.

 

 

We know life with Jesus will be forever, and we know that hellfire is forever.

[dscapp]

We know life with Jesus will be forever, and we know that hellfire is forever.

 

No, Jeremiah gave us details of where this hellfire will be. It's also not hellfire like the fire we experience when we burn our fingers on the stove. The fire God describes is spiritual and within.