Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Sister,

 

I will let Enoch2021 answer you, but it`s good to remember that ONE scripture does NOT a doctrine make.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Guest]

I do so hope & pray that I am teachable otherwise I'm hardening my heart to the Holy Spirit.

 

So thank you for your good comments,

 

& yes to both.

 

Do You Believe In The Resurrection Of The Saints?

 

And In The Restoration Of Israel?

 

Blessings, bro, Marilyn.

 

[OneLight]

My only answer to all this is, with no discussion nor debate ... the body of Christ will be right where He wants them to be. Some mysteries will never be solved until they are fully revealed.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

=========================================================================

 

Now it's clear.  There are seven trumpets, and the seventh is the last one. 

 

 

It's not, as I've shown... it's just the 7th Trumpet.  7th Trumpet doesn't = "the last trump"

 

 

It states clearly, this is the resurrection of the saints.

 

 

What does?  Since there is no Resurrection in Revelation after the 7th Trumpet and before the First Vial Judgement it confirms that the 7th Trumpet is not "the last trump".

 

 

The 7th trumpet is at the end of the tribulation, not the beginning.  You are saying they are raised at the beginning of the  tribulation.

 

 

I never said the 7th Trumpet is @ the Beginning of the "Great Tribulation". The 7th Trumpet is not @ the end of the "Great Tribulation" either....you still have the Seven Vials which begin here....

 

(Revelation 16:1) "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

 

Which includes multiple events then the destruction of Babylon. Then you have the Marriage Supper just before Christ's Return.....which concludes the "Great Tribulation".

 

 

You are saying they are raised at the beginning of the  tribulation.

 

 

I'm saying that "The Church" is removed before Daniel's 70th Week.  The start of the 70th Week is 3.5 years before the "Great Tribulation" begins.

 

I've been seeing alot of responses on various threads using Parables.  Ok,

 

What is a Parable?

Who was the primary audience of these Parables?

Why did Christ employ Parables/what was the Purpose? <---- that one is quite the eye opener.

 

Once you have the answers to those 3 questions, hopefully the light will come on.

 

As for the rest of your post, I've already answered "your" postulates @ least twice.  Please go back and read the rebuttals.  After studying The Book of Revelation for quite a long time.... and still being utterly confused (and I know I'm not the only one)..... What helped me the most was..... I OUTLINED IT    .  It was alot of work but so very rewarding.  If you choose to do this....Pay very close attention to differentiating between:  OT Saints, New Testament Jews, Tribulation Saints, "The Church", the 144,000, Martyrs under the Altar, 24 Elders, Angels....Everyone.  They all have Distinguishing Characteristics and prevents Equivocation (Logical Fallacy). Also, bear in mind...there's over 800 allusions to the OT in Revelation, so jot down all the Idioms found in the Book and go searching (a good Software Program makes this very easy) ...it's quite rewarding.

 

Hope it helps 

[Enoch2021]

You are all having a big discussion on pre-mid & post again, & there are plenty of threads on that subject. However could I direct your thoughts to the main topic of this discussion which is -

 

`Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?`

 

 

Good Point

 

Sorry if I derailed your topic, I felt a comment needed to be addressed.

 

As for your question...

 

I don't know      I haven't gotten there yet.  

 

ps. It's a Great Question.  

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

I did appreciate your comments as I am also pre-trib. & you took the time to answer Sister. However I thought I better bring it back to the point. Didn`t mean to have a go at anyone in particular. I often get off on a tangent also.

 

Perhaps I can ask quite an obvious question to help us with this main one `Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?` I have read people`s thoughts pre-mid & post & it seems to me that everyone thinks that we, the Body of Christ is caught away & then comes back to earth. What makes you all think that? What scriptures tell you we come back to earth?

 

Have a go at that one.  Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Enoch2021.

 

 

Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 (the Olivet Discourse)

 

 

Sorry missed this.  Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the Olivet Discourse.  Luke 21 is not, As Evidenced By....

 

 

Luke's Account is in the Temple during the Day apparently between Jesus all the Disciples and followers....

(Luke 21:5-6) "And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,  {6}  As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

(Luke 21:9-12) "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.  {10} Then said he unto them,  Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
{11}  And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.  {12}  BUT BEFORE ALL THESE, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake."

Matthew's Account (Olivet Discourse) is a Private Meeting on the Mount of Olives @ Night between Jesus, Peter, James, John, and Andrew.

(Matthew 24:7-9) " {7}  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.  {8}  All these are the beginning of sorrows.
{9}  THEN SHALL THEY deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

 

 

The same signs are stated in both accounts; However, after mentioning the same signs, Luke says "Before all these" then description; Matthew says "Then shall they".... After, then description.

Luke's Account............ Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 
Matthew's Account...... End of Days.

 

Moreover, The Pivotal/Key Event in the Olivet Discourse is the "Abomination of Desolation".  Please show The Abomination of Desolation in Luke.....?

 

 

How are you going to know about Luke 21 being part of the Olivet Discourse if you don’t take into account the WHOLE of the chapter? It’s Luke 17 that is not part of the Olivet Discourse, although on that day He did say some of the same things.

 

You must take into the mix two additional factors: (1) the context, and (2) the Greek. And, along with (2), one should also factor in the Jewish thought patterns behind the Greek wording (which implies that either Hebrew or Aramaic were used first and then translated into the Greek a long time ago, or that the Hebrew or Aramaic first language and culture of the author greatly influenced his writing when he wrote the Gospel).

 

See, you’ve rightly assessed that “Luke's Account............ Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.” HOWEVER, the same is true for Mattityahu’s account! I’ve done this research before; in fact, I THINK I’ve published it here before ... but I can’t find it in the archives. So here it is again:

 

First, one should take into account the contexts of each passage;

 

Mattityahu’s Account:

 

Matthew 22:41-24:5

22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.

43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

KJV

 

Now, let’s look at the context of Marcus’ 13th chapter:

 

Mark 12:35-13:6

35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,

39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:

40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

KJV

 

Now, consider Lukas' Account:

 

Luke 20:41-21:8

41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?

42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,

46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;

47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

KJV

 

Some people who think themselves somehow superior to God’s Word may say that it is merely a collection of writings from various authors who were writing about their several sets of then-current events, but these people do not realize how hard it would be for forty different authors through two thousand years of history to agree perfectly with each other as those who wrote the Bible have done. The odds are astronomically against such a work being written. Therefore, the presence of an overseeing Author and Editor would make better sense. The Bible is truly God’s very Word.

 

Others suggest that the Bible merely CONTAINS the Word of God, but that implies that God only stepped in to speak to human beings as the need arose. Furthermore, it implies that God was NOT in full control of the writing of the Bible and that there may be sections that were written by the human writers that would therefore be susceptible to the whims and the errors of the writers. Again, this does not explain the degree of accuracy and compatibility in the writings of the various authors with books written by the other authors. It also introduces another problem: Who decides which parts were written by God and which were merely written by men? That decision would be a tremendously solemn responsibility for any human being to undertake! If the person is wrong, he or she must answer to GOD HIMSELF for his or her impudence in misleading others and lying about God to them!

 

Therefore, one should take a stand on the plenary verbal inspiration of the whole Bible as a unit to acquire a true appreciation of the Bible. “Inspiration” means “in-breathed,” “verbal” means “word,” and “plenary” means “every.” Thus, “plenary verbal inspiration” means “every word in-breathed” by God and that God Himself breathed into the authors every word that He intended to be written in His Book to humanity. The authors then faithfully wrote what God had inspired them to say.

 

With such an understanding of God’s Word, the individual, synoptic works known as the Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel of Mark and the Gospel of Luke are thus equally correct and equally protected by the power of God. Thus, no one book has any more authority than another; EACH ONE was inspired by God. Mattityahu (the Hebrew name for “Matthew") wrote his account of Yeshua’s (Jesus’) life with the same authority from God as Marcus (a Latin name, Mark) wrote his account and Lukas (a Greek name, Luke) wrote his account. They are merely different perspectives on the same events in Yeshua’s life, and all are equally true. Therefore, all three accounts [and Yochanan’s (a Hebrew name, John’s) as well] should be able to harmonize perfectly and give a more accurately detailed account of the events in Yeshua’s life.

 

Harmonies of the Gospels have been attempted before, and they are done in a very general nature. Familiar with Davies’ Harmony of the Gospels and A.T. Robertson’s Harmony of the Gospels, I have noticed that the major challenge that they have had to overcome is the language barrier between English and the Koine Greek from which the Gospels were translated. Both, doing their best in the English versions they were using (the “King James Version,” or as it is often called, the “Authorized Version”), harmonized the EVENTS of Yeshua’s life.

 

I believe that the accounts are capable of so much more! I believe that even the texts themselves of each Gospel may be harmonized. I attempted to do this in the English language, as Davies and Robertson had done, but the English language was incapable of stepping up to the task, because no translation is one-to-one, that is, no language exactly translates into another language word for word.

 

So, I’m going to start a new thread (topic) on harmonizing the GREEK of the Olivet Discourse. Hopefully, we can come together on the matter and see how that each book is both important and supplements the others.

 

In the mean time, I’ll just say that there is a small gap in the writing of Luke 21. He just simply didn’t mention the trip from Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) to Har HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives). However, the Greek is quite clear that these were the same questions and Yeshua`s answers!

 

This also leads to the answer you don’t want to hear from your last question:

 

The portions one must look at between Matthew, Mark and Luke are these:

 

Matthew 24:7-30

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

KJV

 

Mark 13:8-26

8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

KJV

 

Luke 21:10-27

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

KJV

 

You may not want to hear it, but the “abomination of desolation” IS “Jerusalem compassed with armies” and “the desolation thereof is nigh!” Just be aware that all three of these reports are true, were said by Yeshua`, and were said TO HIS DISCIPLES LIVING AT THAT TIME! What’s the point of Him warning them PERSONALLY about these events if they were yet 2,000 years away?! Just look at the surrounding contextual clues!

 

Furthermore, this gives evidence to what I’ve been saying: The “Tribulation” is NOT 7 years long! It is NOT synonymous with the “seventieth Seven (‘week’)” of Daniel 9! It is NEITHER “yet to come” nor is it “already over,” as the future-only premillennials or the past-only preterists would say, respectively! It began in the first century, but it has been continuing through today, and it will continue until signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur and the Messiah returns!

[Last Daze]

 

 

========================================================================================

 

 

 

 

It's not.  "The last trump", "trump of GOD", does not = 7th Trumpet.  You're Equivocating (Fallacy).  To prove otherwise (and I already asked you this), show the Rapture or a Resurrection between....

 

Enoch 2021

 

In the book of Revelations, "revelations" means to "reveal".

So if one seeking and reads;

1 Corinthians 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

He will not know what "the last trump" is, until he seeks further and comes to the book of Revelations, where it is revealed exactly how many trumpets will be blown.

the answer is seven.  So now it's clear, the "last trump" is the "seventh trump", because there are only seven trumpets.

The angel blows the trumpet (sounds the alarm) each in order, and then pours out the vials.

 

Revelation 8:2   And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 8:6   And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Revelation 15:1   And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:6   And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Revelation 15:7   And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 15:8   And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Revelation 16:1   And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Revelation 10:7   But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15   And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

Now it's clear.  There are seven trumpets, and the seventh is the last one.  It states clearly, this is the resurrection of the saints.

The 7th trumpet is at the end of the tribulation, not the beginning.  You are saying they are raised at the beginning of the  tribulation.

 

 

This subject is about where the saints will be during the Millennium.  Just before the Millennium is the tribulation, not just any tribulation but a Great tribulation on the whole world.  This great tribulation starts with the saints.  They are going to be tested now for their faith.  They can chose to save their lives, or be killed.  For refusing the "Mark of the Beast" They will be hungry, poor, desolate and considered outcasts.  They cannot buy or sell. They will lose their homes, and everything they own.

Because of this situation, many end up taking the mark because of pressure, but the faithful will be strong and resist,  It says they will be killed.   God will revenge the world for all their evil and ungodliness, now comes tribulation on the world from God.  On all those who took the mark of the beast.  The wrath of God starts now with seven angels having seven trumpets.  Each trumpet happens in stages until the coming.  These are the signs in their order.

 

Now, the church on this earth, which is made up of the saints, but it has some bad saints in there.  The enemy has infiltrated "the church" with false doctrines, and has his workers of iniquity within there perverting the truth.  Not only will the world be divided, but within the kingdom here, the bad have to go, for the sake of the good.  Many "christians" have come in through the back door, and not the front door.  Now is the time to sift that last generation.

So God will set a test, to see who the true worshipers are. 

The true worshipers will be ready, well informed, and prepared to not give their allegiance to another, even if it means losing their life.  They will do this, because of love, and they know the outcome if they make the wrong move.  They are not in the dark, they have been shown.  They have oil in their lamps.  Fuel.

The others will be not so prepared.  They have been fed sweet smoothing words to relax, and not worry, everything will be ok, because they will be spared.  Can you not see the enemy has done this?

Now is the time we should be prepared for what is coming, and not be like the 5 foolish virgins.  They had no oil in their lamps because there was no knowledge.

If we are not prepared, the flood is going to sweep us away.  We should be prepared to make that sacrifice, just like Christ and the apostles did.  We follow in their footsteps.  Because God allows for us to go through this, is not a punishment.  Was Jesus punished?  or the apostles when they were killed?  No, its a refining process.

 

 

 

 

Well said, Sister.

 

One thing that I think a lot of people miss is:

 

And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.  Revelation 15:6-7

 

There are seven angels that bring seven plagues of God's wrath.  The trumpet announces the start of a plague and the pouring out of a vial or bowl brings it to its fullness.  Even the symbolism suggests such.  I've expounded on the idea here:

 

The seventh trumpet and the seventh vial / bowl happen in the same day.  Look at them and compare:

 

When does Jesus return as a thief? 

 

And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Rev 16:13-16

 

This is after the sixth vial / bowl has been poured out.  The two witnesses have just been killed and conditions around the world revert back to normal.  If that weren't true, people wouldn't be rejoicing and giving each other gifts.  They see the two witnesses as evil and as causing all the pain and misery that they've just suffered.  The false prophet is seen as victorious...until the two witnesses come back to life.  Then there's cause for concern and thus the rallying cry to gather at Armageddon.  It seems the false prophet has everything under control...but its the 45 day calm before the storm.   All that's left is the seventh trumpet and vial.  "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!" Daniel 12:12  The "shattering of the power of the holy people" in Daniel 12:7 is the death of the two witnesses.

[Guest]

My only answer to all this is, with no discussion nor debate..................

 

the body of Christ will be right where He wants them to be...........

 

Some mysteries will never be solved.......

 

until they are fully revealed....

 

 

Amen~!

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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You give walls of text for your rationale that are clearly and simply refuted by the "Context" of Luke 21 and Matthew 24, respectively. (As I outlined in previously)

 

 

You may not want to hear it, but the “abomination of desolation” IS “Jerusalem compassed with armies”

 

 

No, it's not....

 

(Matthew 24:15) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" 

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

Please show these "armies" in the above passage.

 

(Daniel 11:31) "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

 

This is talking about...standing in the Temple and the ac claiming that he is GOD, among other atrocities.  Just as Antiochus IV Epiphanes did that set off the Maccabean Revolt in 167 BC.

 

 

Moreover, if Jerusalem was surrounded by "armies" then what would happen to the Jews "Fleeing"...they'd run right into the "armies"! ....

 

(Matthew 24:15-19) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!"

 

 

Furthermore, this gives evidence to what I’ve been saying: The “Tribulation” is NOT 7 years long!

 

 

 huh?

 

You said.... Retrobyter: "Is it JUST before the 7-year Tribulation (for the “Church”)? OR, is it before the 7-year Tribulation period (for the "Church”) and AFTER the 7-year Tribulation (for Isra’el) and those who come out of the Tribulation?"

Here in Post #179: 

 

 

 

In reference to the "tribulation"....It began in the first century, but it has been continuing through today, and it will continue until signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur and the Messiah returns!

 

 

Again....it's not "tribulation" it's the "Great Tribulation".  

 

I think our conversation has run it's course.  

 

Hope you find the TRUTH