Salty Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 My words in Green Working up backwards: Revelations speaks of seals on a scroll. I take that to mean all those seals on the scroll has to be broken for the contents of the scroll to happen. This is describing all the events happening at the pre trib rapture. Not describing a Pre-trib rapture, it's describing the 7 signs our Lord Jesus gave us about the end per His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. He only gave 7 signs in that, the seals of Rev.6 directly parallel those 7 signs and in the order He gave them per His Olivet Discourse. Luke 21:25-28 is also referring to the pre tribulational rapture. Those verses are not about a pre-trib rapture either, for Jesus is giving the same 7 signs, the very last final sign there being His coming to redeem us. In the next Luke 21:29 forward verses He gives us the parable of a fig tree, to mark the last generation on earth that will see all those signs. Look at some of the signs He gave prior... to those Luke 21:25-28 verses: Luke 21 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. Luke 21 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Those things occur prior... to those 25-28 verses which you say is a pre-trib rapture. It appears you really have not understood the doctrine of men called the Pre-trib Rapture that you claim to believe, because that doctrine preaches a rapture of the saints PRIOR... to any of those events of Luke 21:8-24. Mark 13:14-27 is talking about two events. The time of the great tribulation when that son of perdition will be revealed, and the time before it happens that the days of the elect will be shortened from seeing it. You mis-interpret those Mark 13 Scriptures too. They are the same events given in the Luke 21 chapter. Those tribulation events are upon Christ's elect there, which is why Jesus said He shortened those days for their sake, meaning they... will... go... through... it. He did not say He shortened 'their' days upon the earth, but shortened those days of the tribulation. Mark 13 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days. There is tribulation; and then there is great tribulation. The tribulation that the elect will see in their days is when people will say" lo here is Christ" or there which is happening when people point to coming to God wherever there is a "movement of the Spirit" in seeking after a sign. The elect are not to chase after them. Some may do it, but God will recover them from further chasing after them by returning to their first love, the Bridegroomand, and rest in Jesus Christ that they are always Spirit-filled because Jesus Christ dwells in us by faith. It is because of the falling away from the faith that God has to judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture event to restore those saved believers that went astray that shall get left behind ( unless they repent in time with His help before the Bridegroom comes ) to the path of righteousness for His name's sake to witness the coming great tribulation. Don't know how you're getting that, but much of it is simply a created fallacy to support the Pre-trib Rapture theory. The tribulation is upon God's people, which is what Jesus is warning us about in those Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 chapters, speaking to 'believers' on Him, not unbelieving Jews. In each one of those chapters, the very last and final Sign He gave us was that of His coming in the clouds and gathering His elect, which happens to mean His Church on earth. That means all those previous signs He gave will occur upon us. He gave them so we would know what is to occur in the last days prior to His return and our gathering to Him, so we would not be deceived. Even in 2 Thess.2 about the great falling away and the coming Antichrist, Paul showed those events must... occur prior to Christ's coming to destroy "that Wicked" one. Even by that you should know we will be here when the Antichrist comes to proclaim himself as God and demand all to worship him as God. The Bridegroom (Jesus) comes only one time in the end, and that is the time when the Antichrist is defeated by the brightness of Jesus' coming, and the time when Jesus will gather His Church, and it is the time of the resurrection. Matthew 24:29-31 is talking about the pre trib rapture as well. Actually it is not talking about a pre-trib rapture either, no more than your previous references. It's an almost exact layout of the seven signs for the end that Jesus gave in the Mark 13 and Luke 21 chapters. Now before some of you disagree, look at how there is an escape and how the time before that escape is hardly depicting what believers would be facing during the great tribulation. Luke 21: 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. What's our Lord Jesus' main subject in that above? Being aware vs. NOT being aware, thus deception about those signs by not knowing them, not being aware. Once again, what are those signs He gave there about? They are about the events of the tribulation or time of great affliction upon His Church all the way up to the day of His return when He will end those days. Clearly, there is no physical escape Message there at all, but His Message of warning to not be deceived while suffering through those signs. The escape He was talking about then is escaping... the temptation those things will cause upon those not 'aware'. The deceived who do not 'watch' those signs will be... deceived by them, and that's what they shall not escape. It is wrong to pull out that one word like "escape", and apply a totally different meaning than what the context it's given in is about. That is one of the things the Pre-trib Rapture doctors do often, which will deceive those who heed them. One thing to remember is the fall of Babylon in Revelations 18th chapter. If you recall that event as what the second angel told the world about, this is the fire that will be sent on the earth when Jesus appear at the pre trib rapture when one third of the earth gets burned up which is exactly the entire Western Hemisphere. ( Luke 12:49 ) and that is repercussion for not being ready and found abiding in Him by His grace & by His help as stated in Luke 12:40-49 as those saints were fond slain in Babylon, made to rest from their labours as their works shall follow them. The fall of the Revelation Babylon occurs on the last day of this world. The day of The Lord timing is when that will happen, which also is the day of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. The fire you're referring to, you've taken out of its Biblical context, because God's consuming fire will wipe man's works of this world off the earth, as Peter showed in 2 Pet.3:10 with the "elements" of this present world age destroyed. That clearly will end the reign of the Antichrist/pseudo-Messiah, don't you think? Yes, it will. That is what will end the "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned in Matt.24 also. So that being ended, and Christ gathering His Church on that day, how is that a Pre-trib Rapture? 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Hobbes Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 130 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hi Brother Salty, Instead of listing references this time; list exactly the seven signs and how they are not referring to the pre trib rapture. Mayhap by shortening our replies, it will not be so long a read. The way we are going, we are going to have a book length reply soon, I'd think. I understand that you are not understanding the use of my references, I can let that go for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hi Brother Salty, Instead of listing references this time; list exactly the seven signs and how they are not referring to the pre trib rapture. Mayhap by shortening our replies, it will not be so long a read. The way we are going, we are going to have a book length reply soon, I'd think. I understand that you are not understanding the use of my references, I can let that go for now. The moderators will not allow us to do a line upon line coverage here, sad to say. But that is what is required in order to understand Christ's Olivet Discourse in parallel with the Seals of Rev.6. If you open up Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 in parallel study with Rev.6, you should begin to see where the 7 signs are divided in Christ's Olivet Discourse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jesse Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Hi Brother Salty, Instead of listing references this time; list exactly the seven signs and how they are not referring to the pre trib rapture. Mayhap by shortening our replies, it will not be so long a read. The way we are going, we are going to have a book length reply soon, I'd think. I understand that you are not understanding the use of my references, I can let that go for now. The moderators will not allow us to do a line upon line coverage here, sad to say. But that is what is required in order to understand Christ's Olivet Discourse in parallel with the Seals of Rev.6. If you open up Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 in parallel study with Rev.6, you should begin to see where the 7 signs are divided in Christ's Olivet Discourse. I agree with that. jesse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 25, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hi Dscapp. 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the ***last trump***: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Last trump means the 7th trumpet. jesse. Are the trumpets of 1 Cor. 15:52 and Rev. 11:15-18 the same event? The answer is "no." The fact that the seventh trumpet of the seven trumpet series in Revelation is the last mentioned trumpet in the book (Rev. 11:15-18) and that Paul indicates the rapture will occur at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:52) does not a priori mean that the same event is cited. A grammatical and lexical study demonstrates that 1 Corinthians 15:52 denotes the actual blasting of a trumpet. The idea is that of a last blast of a particular trumpet. At the last blast of a trumpet, the dead will be raised. The name of this trumpet is not "the last trumpet." This is not what Paul is indicating here. Rather, the focus is on the sound of the trumpet. This passage gives no clue what trumpet is blown. Only that when the last blast occurs, the dead will be raised. Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that this trumpet is the trumpet of God. This is the actual name of the trumpet which will be blown at the rapture, the last blast of which will signal the time of resurrection for dead saints. The first time the trumpet of God appears in Scripture can be traced back to Exodus 19:10-20:21. There the trumpet not only served to alert the people to the coming of God into man's domain, but also to warn the people of the seriousness of the moment. This will be the case again at the rapture of the church when God the Father comes with Jesus to deliver the righteous and begin the punishment of the wicked. The seventh trumpet of Revelation is but one of seven trumpets that introduces judgment against the world. These trumpets do not introduce one example of deliverance. They are clearly the judgment of God against those who dwell on the earth. The sequences demands that the church be removed before the first trumpet because the wrath of God is involved. Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends. Thus we can conclude correctly that Paul's trumpet blast and the trumpets of Revelation are not the same. Dscapp. There are only seven trumpets.There is no 8th trumpet. At the coming Jesus will come with his armies in heaven and Micha'el as chief of the army. He will sound the last trumpet. At the coming. jesse. Jesse, do you imagine that God will send angels to collect every trumpet in the universe, then remove the memory of trumpets from every human so that no other trumpet can EVER be sounded? I don't think so! I fully suspect that trumpets will be sounded in the millennial reign. Therefore we must qualify "last trump" to mean the last trump OF A SERIES. There are different series of trumpet blasts in the bible, such as the many trumpets sounded at the feast of trumpets, and the series given in Revelation. If you will note, these 7 in Revelation are all sounded by angels. Michael is NOT one of these seven angels with trumpets. If you knew Revelation chronology you would know that the 7th trumpet will sound to mark the exact midpoint of the 70th week. However, more than 3 1/2 years BEFORE that 7th trumpet will sound, Paul's "last trump" will be sounded. It is GOD's trump. No angel will sound that one. Jesus Himself will blow that one. Paul's "last trump" is the last trump of a DIFFERENT SERIES. Paul did not mean the last trumpet ever to sound. Sorry, but that theory is just plain silly. Next, if you study the bible carefully, you will see there are TWO MORE comings of our Lord Jesus; first to GET His bride, and last to come WITH His bride. These two comings are over 7 years apart, and they are DIFFERENT. AT His next coming FOR His bride, He will only come to the air, then escort His bride back to heaven, to the mansions He has prepared. He will not touch down onto earth until AFTER the 70th week has ended - and no one will now how long after. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 28, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2014 Rev.10 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2014 Rev.10 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. You really should learn what this mystery is. But then, it is a mystery! LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2014 Rev.10 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. You really should learn what this mystery is. But then, it is a mystery! There are some clues as to what this mystery is. Take, for example, the fact that Satan is cast down right after the 7th trumpet. Take, for example, the fact that the kingdoms of the world are transferred from Satan to Jesus. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2014 Dscapp. There are only seven trumpets.There is no 8th trumpet. At the coming Jesus will come with his armies in heaven and Micha'el as chief of the army. He will sound the last trumpet. At the coming. jesse. You're not understanding something though. Notice in 1 Thess 5:9 that the church is not appointed to wrath. The seven trumpets of God is in regards to His wrath. The tribulation of Christians and God's wrath are not the same. 1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. You are SO RIGHT. Most ignore the scripture that prove the Trumpet judgments are His wrath. They also ignore the fact that John begins God's wrath at the 6th seal. If they acknowledge that, then they have to MOVE the 6th seal. How silly! why not just believe what John as written? It makes perfect sense as written, and NOTHING has to be moved. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2014 There are those who fully believe that God will protect His children during His wrath as He did the Hebrews in Egypt during the plagues. He WILL protect those that flee from Judea. But God has not promised to protect anyone else during that time, for HIS WILL is that all escape what is coming. What God has really shown us is that believers will be overcome and put to death. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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