Hobbes Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 130 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 Hobbes, The Holy Spirit is God, or do you not believe in the Trinity? Why does God need to tell God what He is interceding about? Jesus was speaking about men needing to go through Him to get to the father, meaning salvation, not praying, though He is our intercessor also. Hi OneLight, Yes, the Holy Spirit is God and there is a Triune God, but Jesus was talking more than just about salvation when it comes to John 14:6 because that commandment of His invitation was how to come to God the Father for anything and that is by Him. As for God needing God to tell God what He is interceding about, if you consider the Son at that throne of grace as our Passover Lamb by Whom we have access to God the Father to even approach Him in prayer, fellowship, and worship, then you can see why Jesus has to be the sole Intercessor as being our only Mediator between God and man because when He gives our intercessions and the intercessions of the Spirit's concerning us to the Father, when the Father says "Yes," the Son answers our prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers. That is why we are to give God the Father thanks in Jesus' name. Only the Son can give all intercessions concerning us to the Father because there is only One Mediator between us & the Father. Believers that oppose that truth, do so by ignoring how prayers are answered by the Son so that the Father may be glorified in Him. Let's look at the verse in context. John 14:1-6 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.” Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Jesus is speaking of salvation. What Jesus teaches in scripture focuses on one point, returning the lost to the Father. It may include prayer, but that is not His focus. Prayer is what salvation encompasses, not the end point. That verse does points to Jesus for life, but also for truth and the way in coming to God the Father for anything. When the Holy Spirit prays for us, it is Him exposing what is in our heart. God already knows, so the reason for this, from what I can see, is to relieve us of the burden we do not know is there. We, when we don't know what to prayer for, so, at times, pray in the spirit. It is a blessing that He has given us this ability to communicate to Him in a way that echoes our heart, not what we mentally know. That is different than speaking in tongues to the congregation. Matthew 6:7-8 testify that the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer and so the necessity for the Holy Spirit to pray by uttering tongues so that the Father may know is opposing that truth in Matthew 6:7-8. Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. So now every believer reading your post that does not speak in tongues, some may panic now because they will think they need tongues just so that the Father knows when they do not know what to pray for, and that is not true. If you agree, then how can you say otherwise for necessity of tongues as supposedly used by the Spirit for praying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,250 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,981 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2014 Well, seeing how you are trying to validate tongues, all I can say is how can you know that is what you had prayed for, in order for you to give credit to tongues? That is a very long story that I doubt you would take the time to absorb. It doesn't matter because it goes against scripture. A neighbour across the street testify of how one day she was reading her Bible in the kitchen and the Holy Spirit came over her and she began speaking in tongues for the first time. She then went on to say that was when she was saved because she got it all at once. I am not doubting that she had that experience until I had asked her what she was reading that led her to believe in Jesus. She did not know what I had meant at first and then she went on to say that she had gone to her pastor and asked why this had occurred when she was a believer for a long time. The pastor pointed to Acts which I assume was Acts 2nd chapter where the disciples were just waiting around doing every day thing when they had received the promise, and said that was that. The Bible helps me to discern that what she had experienced was not the Holy Ghost because the Spirit of Truth would not lead her to change her testimony because of that incident to when she was "officially" saved, but she believed it and that leads to the so called heresey going around that some believers believe that you need to speak in tongues to know that you have the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. Then you have people like Joyce Meyers that testify she began speaking in tongues and that was the moment God was calling her into the ministry. I even read one time how she interpreted tongues; she would feel in her spirit what is being said and interpret it. I do not believe she has the actual gift of interpretation either as I can see how believers are winging the interpretation now too. Scripture testify that in not believing every spirit but test them in 1 John 4:1 and that was by the examination of our fath in 2 Corinthians 13:5 which is Jesus Christ in us, and that is the same thing in 1 John 4:2 because this was about testing the spirits, not reproving the heresey that Jesus had never come in the flesh. The term "is come" in verse 2 & 3 is menaing presnetly as to where Jesus Christ is now as in inside of us. By going into verse 3, I see that any spirit that does not confess to that faith of Jesus Christ being in us is the spirit of the antichrist that is in the world as it concludes in verse 4 that greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. And then it spoke of how those in error speak as the world speak which I take it to refer to superntaurl tongue with no interpretation; as babbling nonsense which can find its existence in the world before Pentecost in the occult and other religions. And so it takes Christ love to address the beloeved brothers and sisters that have been led astray by those spirits and the tongues they bring. 1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. Those tongues are accompanying and supporting an apostasy of receiving another baptism with the Holy Ghost again with evidence of tongues; disregarding also the warning against those preaching another Jesus or another spirit to receive. 2 Corinthaisn 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. Jesus also warned about climbing up another way and getting the result of following a stranger's voice because of it, as many believers do ask the Holy Spirit for those tongues as well as seeking to receive Him again with evidence of tongues. John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: Jesus testified that climbing up another way would lead believers to follow a stranger's voice as tongues without interpretation is having believers following a stranger's voice. The thief is the one that comes inbetween us and the Son as verse 7 testify and Jesus re-emphasizes how He is the only way we can approach God the Father for life with God in anything; prayer, fellowship, and worship. We truly are reconciled to God the Father thru the Bridegroom, the Lord Jesus Christ. He speaks to us thru the Holy Spirit in us as we as the bride of Christ are to speak to the Bridegroom in relating to God by to avoid false spirits in the world that seeks to seduce us into having them come inbetween us and the Son. Maybe some day you will be blessed with the experience.... then maybe you can bless others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2014 Hobbes, The Holy Spirit is God, or do you not believe in the Trinity? Why does God need to tell God what He is interceding about? Jesus was speaking about men needing to go through Him to get to the father, meaning salvation, not praying, though He is our intercessor also. Hi OneLight, Yes, the Holy Spirit is God and there is a Triune God, but Jesus was talking more than just about salvation when it comes to John 14:6 because that commandment of His invitation was how to come to God the Father for anything and that is by Him. As for God needing God to tell God what He is interceding about, if you consider the Son at that throne of grace as our Passover Lamb by Whom we have access to God the Father to even approach Him in prayer, fellowship, and worship, then you can see why Jesus has to be the sole Intercessor as being our only Mediator between God and man because when He gives our intercessions and the intercessions of the Spirit's concerning us to the Father, when the Father says "Yes," the Son answers our prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers. That is why we are to give God the Father thanks in Jesus' name. Only the Son can give all intercessions concerning us to the Father because there is only One Mediator between us & the Father. Believers that oppose that truth, do so by ignoring how prayers are answered by the Son so that the Father may be glorified in Him. Let's look at the verse in context. John 14:1-6“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.” Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Jesus is speaking of salvation. What Jesus teaches in scripture focuses on one point, returning the lost to the Father. It may include prayer, but that is not His focus. Prayer is what salvation encompasses, not the end point. That verse does points to Jesus for life, but also for truth and the way in coming to God the Father for anything. When the Holy Spirit prays for us, it is Him exposing what is in our heart. God already knows, so the reason for this, from what I can see, is to relieve us of the burden we do not know is there. We, when we don't know what to prayer for, so, at times, pray in the spirit. It is a blessing that He has given us this ability to communicate to Him in a way that echoes our heart, not what we mentally know. That is different than speaking in tongues to the congregation. Matthew 6:7-8 testify that the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer and so the necessity for the Holy Spirit to pray by uttering tongues so that the Father may know is opposing that truth in Matthew 6:7-8. Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. So now every believer reading your post that does not speak in tongues, some may panic now because they will think they need tongues just so that the Father knows when they do not know what to pray for, and that is not true. If you agree, then how can you say otherwise for necessity of tongues as supposedly used by the Spirit for praying? The prayer in Matthew 6:7-8 has nothing to do with praying in the spirit. It is showing us how not to pray, like the hypocrites do. Examine the examples He gives. Let's look at what brought the prayer into light. Matthew 6:5-7 And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Jesus is not discouraging praying in the spirit, but praying like the hypocrites. Have you even gone to the Lord in prayer, but just can't find the right words? Ever feel like there is more you should be praying about that you just can't remember? Ever have that nagging feeling that you left something important out or that you missed the mark somehow? We all have. God has given us an avenue to bring this to Him, through praying in the spirit. We can either accept this gift or turn away from it, trying to do is on our own. I do not see my explanation as placing fear in the heart of the readers as you do, but offering what is in scripture and not promoting selective blindness. Perhaps that "fear" is the urging of the Holy Spirit to accept what scripture says and is not really fear at all. I can see how those who fully reject praying in the spirit can become fearful when truth is spoken, relieving and exposing their belief in a false teaching if they continue to reject scripture. but to those who have not rejected, it is an opportunity for them to examine scripture to see what is true and what is false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He giveth more grace Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,049 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 267 Days Won: 9 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2014 When the Holy Spirit prays for us, it is Him exposing what is in heartYes indeed, that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 130 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) Brother OneLight, Granted, Jesus was talking about other aspects of praying per your reference in reproving, but the point of truth was made that the Father knows before we ask or say anything. That was the bottomline truth in reproving vain repetitions for. Edited August 20, 2014 by Hobbes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 130 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 Brother OneLight, Also, praying in the spirit is not the same thing as praying in the Spirit. Alot of believers are praying out of the Spirit when they pray to the Holy Ghost to receive again after a sign which is the apostasy warned of in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 & 1 Timothy 4:1-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 130 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 When the Holy Spirit prays for us, it is Him exposing what is in heart Yes indeed, that's it. The scripture in the OP reproves such notion that He is the actual One doing the praying when His intercessions are unspeakable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He giveth more grace Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,049 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 267 Days Won: 9 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2014 When the Holy Spirit prays for us, it is Him exposing what is in heartYes indeed, that's it.Wait a minute, not exposing, but praying the cry, the need, the burden of our heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2014 I have always understood it to be that when in prayer we are so burdened that we cannot even pray it is the Holy Spirit Who takes over In groan ings on our behalf and brings what is in our heart before The Lord . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 130 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 I have always understood it to be that when in prayer we are so burdened that we cannot even pray it is the Holy Spirit Who takes over In groan ings on our behalf and brings what is in our heart before The Lord . I can understand that if you were using a wrong Bible version; the KJV has been explained in the OP as to why that translations is correct and lining up with the other truths in the scripture that Modern Bible has but fail to see them as opposing its errant translation of some verses like Romans 8:26-27. I reckon I shall leave it to Jesus to help any one see that. I can't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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