seandavids Posted December 30, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 244 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/10/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 30, 2014 chapter 8 is about a vision of a goat and a ram with the story showing host of heaven being thrown down and trampled, It set itself up to be as the great Prince of host, It took away the daily sacrifice from him and the place of his santuary was brought low, because of rebellion the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. this is the passage you are denoting is the work of Jesus? It should be noted all the other perscribed interpretations are your own "Alexander the great, the four generals....etc....there not found in scripture =============================================================================================================== this is the passage you are denoting is the work of Jesus? Which Passage? chapter 8 is about a vision of a goat and a ram with the story showing host of heaven being thrown down and trampled Here this might help.... (Daniel 8:3-12) "Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. {4} I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. {5} And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. {6} And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. {7} And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. {8} Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. {9} And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. {10} And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. {11} Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. {12} And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered." "a ram which had two horns" ---- Medo-Persia and "but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last."---- Persia came up last and dominated. "he goat came from the west"----- Greece and "touched not the ground"---- Speed "and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes"----Alexander The Great. "smote the ram, and brake his two horns"----- Greece (Alexander) Conquers Medo-Persia. "he goat waxed very great"--- Alexander The Great and "the great horn was broken"---- Alexander Died soon after (~ 30 Years Old). "and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven." Alexanders Generals (Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy) divided the Empire. "out of one of them came forth a little horn"----This is Antiochus IV Epiphanes who came up from the Seleucid Empire. "he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."---- This is Antiochus with the First Abomination of Desolation (I think he slaughtered a Pig on the Altar then erected a statue of Zeus or Jupiter in the Holy of Holy's). This then led to the Maccabean Revolt----the victory is celebrated to this day....Hanukkah Lets look @ what's AFTER Verse 17 and Identify the players.... (Daniel 8:18-27) "Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. {19} And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. {20} The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. {21} And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. {22} Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. {23} And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. {24} And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. {25} And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. {26} And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. {27} And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." "The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia." (Self Identified) "rough goat is the king of Grecia" (Alexander The Great) and "great horn that is between his eyes is the first king" (Again, Alexander The Great) "Now that being broken (Alexander Dies) whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up" (Again...Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy) ** This is eerily similar to the same scenario we just read in (Daniel 8:3-12) above. "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." "In the later time of "Their" Kingdom". Who's "Their"? The Antecedent----the Four Kingdoms (Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy). "a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up" --- This is where we head off the rails. This is definitely talking about the ac/beast AND it most assuredly is also talking about the despot Antiochus IV Epiphanes. There's Crossover here...a screaming "TYPE". Just as there's crossover when Jesus talks about an event that already took place (Abomination of Desolation) as a Future Event. This "Crossover" (Between Antiochus and the ac) happens again in a somewhat similar scenario @ the end of Daniel Chapter 11. It should be noted all the other perscribed interpretations are your own "Alexander the great, the four generals....etc....there not found in scripture This is correct. They are not Explicitly Identified. I first looked @ Scripture then I went hunting into Secular History to Identify the Principles. If you take issue with it, you are welcome to refute it; If so, Please Cogently and Specifically. Thanks regards does it even matter to you that the lives of the four generals do not line up with what the scripture says they will each do, this is a fact in the historical record and the four generals lives are not in agreement with the scriptures pertaining to the four kings mentioned that come out of Greece ================================================================================================================ does it even matter to you that the lives of the four generals do not line up with what the scripture says they will each do, this is a fact in the historical record and the four generals lives are not in agreement with the scriptures pertaining to the four kings mentioned that come out of Greece Well it's not "The Generals" lives that are discussed but their respective empires; Mainly two that are in focus in Daniel: Ptolemaic and Seleucid and the struggles between them... with Israel trapped (buffer state) in the middle. Does that clear things up? again the lives of Ptolemaic and Seleucid do not line up with what God's word says the kings will do, does this not matter? or is it more important that you hammer in the pieces you believe are part of the puzzle even though they don't actually fit then you jump from the four kings directly into the life of the antichrist and his rise to power talk about a time gap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted December 30, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted December 30, 2014 chapter 8 is about a vision of a goat and a ram with the story showing host of heaven being thrown down and trampled, It set itself up to be as the great Prince of host, It took away the daily sacrifice from him and the place of his santuary was brought low, because of rebellion the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. this is the passage you are denoting is the work of Jesus? It should be noted all the other perscribed interpretations are your own "Alexander the great, the four generals....etc....there not found in scripture =============================================================================================================== this is the passage you are denoting is the work of Jesus? Which Passage? chapter 8 is about a vision of a goat and a ram with the story showing host of heaven being thrown down and trampled Here this might help.... (Daniel 8:3-12) "Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. {4} I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. {5} And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. {6} And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. {7} And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. {8} Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. {9} And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. {10} And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. {11} Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. {12} And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered." "a ram which had two horns" ---- Medo-Persia and "but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last."---- Persia came up last and dominated. "he goat came from the west"----- Greece and "touched not the ground"---- Speed "and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes"----Alexander The Great. "smote the ram, and brake his two horns"----- Greece (Alexander) Conquers Medo-Persia. "he goat waxed very great"--- Alexander The Great and "the great horn was broken"---- Alexander Died soon after (~ 30 Years Old). "and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven." Alexanders Generals (Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy) divided the Empire. "out of one of them came forth a little horn"----This is Antiochus IV Epiphanes who came up from the Seleucid Empire. "he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."---- This is Antiochus with the First Abomination of Desolation (I think he slaughtered a Pig on the Altar then erected a statue of Zeus or Jupiter in the Holy of Holy's). This then led to the Maccabean Revolt----the victory is celebrated to this day....Hanukkah Lets look @ what's AFTER Verse 17 and Identify the players.... (Daniel 8:18-27) "Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. {19} And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. {20} The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. {21} And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. {22} Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. {23} And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. {24} And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. {25} And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. {26} And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. {27} And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." "The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia." (Self Identified) "rough goat is the king of Grecia" (Alexander The Great) and "great horn that is between his eyes is the first king" (Again, Alexander The Great) "Now that being broken (Alexander Dies) whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up" (Again...Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy) ** This is eerily similar to the same scenario we just read in (Daniel 8:3-12) above. "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." "In the later time of "Their" Kingdom". Who's "Their"? The Antecedent----the Four Kingdoms (Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy). "a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up" --- This is where we head off the rails. This is definitely talking about the ac/beast AND it most assuredly is also talking about the despot Antiochus IV Epiphanes. There's Crossover here...a screaming "TYPE". Just as there's crossover when Jesus talks about an event that already took place (Abomination of Desolation) as a Future Event. This "Crossover" (Between Antiochus and the ac) happens again in a somewhat similar scenario @ the end of Daniel Chapter 11. It should be noted all the other perscribed interpretations are your own "Alexander the great, the four generals....etc....there not found in scripture This is correct. They are not Explicitly Identified. I first looked @ Scripture then I went hunting into Secular History to Identify the Principles. If you take issue with it, you are welcome to refute it; If so, Please Cogently and Specifically. Thanks regards does it even matter to you that the lives of the four generals do not line up with what the scripture says they will each do, this is a fact in the historical record and the four generals lives are not in agreement with the scriptures pertaining to the four kings mentioned that come out of Greece ================================================================================================================ does it even matter to you that the lives of the four generals do not line up with what the scripture says they will each do, this is a fact in the historical record and the four generals lives are not in agreement with the scriptures pertaining to the four kings mentioned that come out of Greece Well it's not "The Generals" lives that are discussed but their respective empires; Mainly two that are in focus in Daniel: Ptolemaic and Seleucid and the struggles between them... with Israel trapped (buffer state) in the middle. Does that clear things up? again the lives of Ptolemaic and Seleucid do not line up with what God's word says the kings will do, does this not matter? or is it more important that you hammer in the pieces you believe are part of the puzzle even though they don't actually fit then you jump from the four kings directly into the life of the antichrist and his rise to power talk about a time gap? ===================================================================================================== Again.... it's not "their" lives that are in view or discussed. And there is no "Jumping"; Have you ever read Chapter 11 of Daniel ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Great Stuff Beloved~! ~ A Short Word From Our Sponsor For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 And Now Back To Our Regularly Scheduled Programming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seandavids Posted January 1, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 244 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/10/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2015 chapter 8 is about a vision of a goat and a ram with the story showing host of heaven being thrown down and trampled, It set itself up to be as the great Prince of host, It took away the daily sacrifice from him and the place of his santuary was brought low, because of rebellion the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. this is the passage you are denoting is the work of Jesus? It should be noted all the other perscribed interpretations are your own "Alexander the great, the four generals....etc....there not found in scripture =============================================================================================================== this is the passage you are denoting is the work of Jesus? Which Passage? chapter 8 is about a vision of a goat and a ram with the story showing host of heaven being thrown down and trampled Here this might help.... (Daniel 8:3-12) "Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. {4} I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. {5} And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. {6} And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. {7} And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. {8} Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. {9} And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. {10} And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. {11} Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. {12} And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered." "a ram which had two horns" ---- Medo-Persia and "but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last."---- Persia came up last and dominated. "he goat came from the west"----- Greece and "touched not the ground"---- Speed "and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes"----Alexander The Great. "smote the ram, and brake his two horns"----- Greece (Alexander) Conquers Medo-Persia. "he goat waxed very great"--- Alexander The Great and "the great horn was broken"---- Alexander Died soon after (~ 30 Years Old). "and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven." Alexanders Generals (Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy) divided the Empire. "out of one of them came forth a little horn"----This is Antiochus IV Epiphanes who came up from the Seleucid Empire. "he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."---- This is Antiochus with the First Abomination of Desolation (I think he slaughtered a Pig on the Altar then erected a statue of Zeus or Jupiter in the Holy of Holy's). This then led to the Maccabean Revolt----the victory is celebrated to this day....Hanukkah Lets look @ what's AFTER Verse 17 and Identify the players.... (Daniel 8:18-27) "Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. {19} And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. {20} The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. {21} And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. {22} Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. {23} And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. {24} And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. {25} And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. {26} And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. {27} And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." "The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia." (Self Identified) "rough goat is the king of Grecia" (Alexander The Great) and "great horn that is between his eyes is the first king" (Again, Alexander The Great) "Now that being broken (Alexander Dies) whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up" (Again...Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy) ** This is eerily similar to the same scenario we just read in (Daniel 8:3-12) above. "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." "In the later time of "Their" Kingdom". Who's "Their"? The Antecedent----the Four Kingdoms (Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy). "a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up" --- This is where we head off the rails. This is definitely talking about the ac/beast AND it most assuredly is also talking about the despot Antiochus IV Epiphanes. There's Crossover here...a screaming "TYPE". Just as there's crossover when Jesus talks about an event that already took place (Abomination of Desolation) as a Future Event. This "Crossover" (Between Antiochus and the ac) happens again in a somewhat similar scenario @ the end of Daniel Chapter 11. It should be noted all the other perscribed interpretations are your own "Alexander the great, the four generals....etc....there not found in scripture This is correct. They are not Explicitly Identified. I first looked @ Scripture then I went hunting into Secular History to Identify the Principles. If you take issue with it, you are welcome to refute it; If so, Please Cogently and Specifically. Thanks regards does it even matter to you that the lives of the four generals do not line up with what the scripture says they will each do, this is a fact in the historical record and the four generals lives are not in agreement with the scriptures pertaining to the four kings mentioned that come out of Greece ================================================================================================================ does it even matter to you that the lives of the four generals do not line up with what the scripture says they will each do, this is a fact in the historical record and the four generals lives are not in agreement with the scriptures pertaining to the four kings mentioned that come out of Greece Well it's not "The Generals" lives that are discussed but their respective empires; Mainly two that are in focus in Daniel: Ptolemaic and Seleucid and the struggles between them... with Israel trapped (buffer state) in the middle. Does that clear things up? again the lives of Ptolemaic and Seleucid do not line up with what God's word says the kings will do, does this not matter? or is it more important that you hammer in the pieces you believe are part of the puzzle even though they don't actually fit then you jump from the four kings directly into the life of the antichrist and his rise to power talk about a time gap? ===================================================================================================== Again.... it's not "their" lives that are in view or discussed. And there is no "Jumping"; Have you ever read Chapter 11 of Daniel ? no Jumping!, really? I have read chapter 11 thousands of times and it appears to go from the lives of the four kings (whom you have said were four generals that succeeded Alexander the great) !!:3 Then a mighty king will appear, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases, after he has appeared, his empire will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. is this not the passages you apply to be Alexander the great and his four generals you have named as kings (even though they never were called kings historically) thats 11:3-4 from there the scripture starts describing a king of the south and a king of the north and clearly these two kingdoms practice a tradition that is rarely seen in todays world and only few people groups still practice this tradition and that is giving daughters in marriage we see these two kingdoms fight for quite a long period of time so from your theology we go from Alexander the great and his four generals in verse 11:3-4 and we have the antichrist rise on verse 11:21 you do believe the scripture is describing the antichrist starting in verse 21 do you not? and thats not a jump to you? 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