The Seven Seals

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues?

 

Oh, there's no problem...much less a huge one.  The seven seals are a framework.  At certain points, details are added and expounded upon.  Take chapter 12 for instance, verse 5.  That's a reference to the birth of Christ.  See how that narrative continues to flow right into the part about the beast from the sea?  Chapter breaks are not part of the original text.  Clearly, it's meant to provide additional detail.  At a cursory glance I'd say that chapter 12 on mostly modifies chapters 6-11.

 

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

 

In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

 

Yes, and he did.  All the deception of wickedness is a characteristic of the false prophet who is empowered by the beast.  "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

 

 

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

 

I can't even make sense of this according to the descriptions of those seals in Revelation.  The other three ride together?  Famine on the church?

 

No! Not famines on the church! The devil creates famines to stop the advance of the gospel and of course to kill people before they can hear. Did you not read about the pale horse closely? Here is a good example of hearing from the Holy Spirit. I take no credit what-so-ever. I got stuck on the word: "them."

 

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

It was not me, it was the Holy Spirit. I could not let go of it, so I began to bug God: WHO is "them?" He kept answering the same way, several times: "it is right there in the verse: just keep reading it."

 

As I said before, I am SLOW to learn. It took me too long to get it, but thank God I finally did.

 

Power was given over "them" to kill with the sword: so WHO was given a sword? Of course the red horse and rider.

Power was given over "them" to kill with the hunger: so WHO was bringing famine? Of course the black horse and rider.

Power was given over "them" to kill with the death: so WHO was called "death?" Of course the pale horse and rider.

 

If you notice, the white horse and rider is NOT INCLUDED in "them." Why? Because the white horse and rider are to represent righteousness, not evil. There is not one hint of evil in his description. That is only man's reasonings.

 

Chapter 12, verses 1-5 are written as a parenthesis. In chapters 11 and 12, John is at the midpoint of the week in his narrative, but as you said, these verses are about the birth of Christ.

 

When I was trying to answer God's three questions to me about chapters 4 & 5, and I was unable, suddenly God spoke and told me to go to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, God spoke again and said, "this chapter was me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." I counted and if I remember, 32 times. I could easily see, this chapter was about the dragon. Then God continued: " I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."  I now know, He sent me to chapter 12 to understand "history lesson." All of Revelation [even from chapter 4:1] is NOT future tense!

 

So we agree; verses 1-5 in chapter 12 are about the birth of Christ, and how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a young child.

 

If you notice, in chapter 12, John is introduced to the Dragon, and in Chapter 13 he is introduced to the Beast and False Prophet. Most of chapters 11, 12, 13, and 14 are written in what I call an "intermission" between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and then between the 7th trumpet and the vials.  I liken this to the curtain closing at a play. The setting must be rearranged to fit the next "act" in the play.  This idea fits perfectly in John's break between the 6th and 7th seals. Two events MUST take place before the 7th seal opens the 70th week: the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection, and the church MUST be seen in heaven, before God's wrath is poured out on earth. It does not fit quite so well between the 6th and 7th trumpet, but it still fits. John cannot sound the 7th trumpet until the setting is rearranged to fit the next "act:" the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint of the week. First, the man of sin will enter the temple at the exact midpoint and declare he is God. So John must first get the man of sin to Jerusalem so he will be there to enter the temple. (11:1-2). Next, the two witnesses MUST be there to witness this abomination. Once John has accomplished these two events, THEN the 7th trumpet can be sounded. (So it is quite like the break between the 6th and 7th seals so far.) I call this the "midpoint intermission."

 

However, after the 7th trumpet has sounded, the vials do not come immediately as the trumpets did after the 7th seal. John continues in his intermission information with the woman fleeing, the great war in the heavenlies, and the introduction to the Beast and False prophet. Then in chapter 14, the 144,000 now seen in heaven, then the message of the three angels that MUST come before the Beast and False prophet set up their image and mark.

 

Always remember, the seals are SEALING the book or scroll from being opened. That is their purpose. NO ONE can open the scroll to read about the trumpet judgments until all the seals are opened. Can you see now the great importance of someone being found worthy to break the seals? this is the KEY to the reign of Satan as the god of this world ENDING and the kingdoms being transferred to Jesus Christ. You see, if NO ONE was ever found worthy to break these seals and open the book, Satan would remain the god of this word indefinitely. THANK GOD Jesus was found worthy! In other words, NO TRUMPET can be sounded until all 7 seals are opened, exactly as John has written it.

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

HISTORY. You have already admitted that 12:1-5 was history. Why is it hard to believe another passage is history? Go back and read it again. Here are the three questions God asked me to answer, and I could not for a while:

 

1. Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father, when there are many verses saying that is where I went to be? Stephen SAW me there.

 

2. Why was "no man found" in the first search for one worthy, that ended in failure? If you read ahead, you find that I was later found worthy.

 

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

 

It took me FAR TOO LONG to answer these questions. The truth is, this is a vision of the PAST, looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on the earth, or under the earth. then, John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, about 32 AD.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The devil creates famines to stop the advance of the gospel and of course to kill people before they can hear.

 

Famines are not something new to the church age.  The third seal famine is a result of the second seal war.  Famine is not a 2000 year plan of Satan to kill off the gospel.

 

 

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

 

The "them" is a clear contextual reference to Death and Hades.  The more important part of that verse is the "fourth part of the earth".  That's what they were given power over.  It's the limit that God imposed for the cumulative effects of the second and third seal.

 

 

Most of chapters 11, 12, 13, and 14 are written in what I call an "intermission" between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and then between the 7th trumpet and the vials.

 

Chapters 6-11 provide an overview.  Chapters 12 and following largely expound on 6-11.  The seventh trumpet / bowl is the END.  They happen in the same day, maybe in the same hour.  Read them and compare.

 

 

HISTORY. You have already admitted that 12:1-5 was history. Why is it hard to believe another passage is history?

 

Context, that's why.  Remember the "after these things" part?

 

"After these things" is only a transitional phrase John used to show that God has quit talking about the churches and is going to something new. That something new could be a vision of the past, of the present or the future. In this case it was a vision of the past.

 

LAMAD

[Last Daze]

The seventh trumpet / bowl is the END.

 

PROVE IT. Since you think you can rearrange John's God given chronology, then it will be up to you to prove the necessity of moving things around. As I read it, there is chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, AFTER the 7th trumpet and before Jesus comes. this is the way John wrote it. Why do you feel such a great need to rearrange? What is wrong with the sequence John gave us? Is it because you just can't bare to think of the 7th seal as the MIDPOINT? Did you notice that those that flee into the wilderness at seeing the abomination, flee right after the 7th trumpet? That is proof positive for most that the 7th trumpet sounds at the midpoint.

 

In case you did not notice, some of the trumpet judgments come as partial judgments as one third: God showing those who oppose Him that He has POWER over the elements. But when he gets to the vials, It is 100% destruction. John wrote these things in sequence and numbered them for a REASON. It is clear that the vials must come AFTER the trumpets.

 

However, I know you will just keep on writing your false theories. One day when these things happen, you will see that they will happen in the exact order John wrote them.

 

LAMAD

 

Did you compare the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl?

 

Seventh trumpet:

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Revelation 11:19

 

Seventh bowl:

And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.  Revelation 16:18,21

 

Two unrelated events?  No. The trumpets and bowls are related to each other.  Look at the symbolism used, trumpets and bowls.  An angel sounds a trumpet which begins a judgment.  At some point later that angel pours out a bowl which completes the judgment.  That's why some of the judgments start off as a third, then go to full.  Serving made an excellent point in this post: I'm still waiting to read your reply on that one.

 

In case you missed my earlier post on the trumpet / bowl connection here's the link:

 

That's why chapter 12 and following mostly give additional details about the seals and trumpets in 6-11.  The seventh trumpet is the return of Christ.  No chronology has been rearranged.

[iamlamad]

 

The seventh trumpet / bowl is the END.

 

PROVE IT. Since you think you can rearrange John's God given chronology, then it will be up to you to prove the necessity of moving things around. As I read it, there is chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, AFTER the 7th trumpet and before Jesus comes. this is the way John wrote it. Why do you feel such a great need to rearrange? What is wrong with the sequence John gave us? Is it because you just can't bare to think of the 7th seal as the MIDPOINT? Did you notice that those that flee into the wilderness at seeing the abomination, flee right after the 7th trumpet? That is proof positive for most that the 7th trumpet sounds at the midpoint.

 

In case you did not notice, some of the trumpet judgments come as partial judgments as one third: God showing those who oppose Him that He has POWER over the elements. But when he gets to the vials, It is 100% destruction. John wrote these things in sequence and numbered them for a REASON. It is clear that the vials must come AFTER the trumpets.

 

However, I know you will just keep on writing your false theories. One day when these things happen, you will see that they will happen in the exact order John wrote them.

 

LAMAD

 

Did you compare the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl?

 

Seventh trumpet:

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Revelation 11:19

 

Seventh bowl:

And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.  Revelation 16:18,21

 

Two unrelated events?  No. The trumpets and bowls are related to each other.  Look at the symbolism used, trumpets and bowls.  An angel sounds a trumpet which begins a judgment.  At some point later that angel pours out a bowl which completes the judgment.  That's why some of the judgments start off as a third, then go to full.  Serving made an excellent point in this post: I'm still waiting to read your reply on that one.

 

In case you missed my earlier post on the trumpet / bowl connection here's the link:

 

That's why chapter 12 and following mostly give additional details about the seals and trumpets in 6-11.  The seventh trumpet is the return of Christ.  No chronology has been rearranged.

 

There is something I think you MISSED:

 

¹⁹ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

WHERE is this lightning? WHERE was this hail? Do you really think there will be great hail in the temple in heaven? Remember, this is a VISION. Without a doubt, what John saw was as PROPHECY, foretelling what was to come on the earth.

 

WHY is one trumpet a one third judgment, while the vial is total judgment? It is because the trumpets come first, and God has great mercy, even in His wrath; the trumpets are to show to those on earth who will not repent, that God has power of the oceans and fresh water and over the power of the sun. They come as warnings; God showing the earth that He is LORD OVER ALL. Sadly, few if any repent, so in the vials, God releases full judgment filled with His wrath.

 

You might as well give up! People have been trying to prove the trumpets and vials are the same judgments for years. They all  fail for they are wrong. How can anyone prove against the truth? They can only try. Do you not understand John's (and God's) chronology at all? The first six trumpets are sounded in the FIRST HALF of the 70th week, then the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint, and the vials come LATE in the second half of the week. There will be TIME between the trumpets and vials.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

Did you compare the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl?

 

 

Seventh trumpet:

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Revelation 11:19

 

Seventh bowl:

And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.  Revelation 16:18,21

 

Two unrelated events?  No. The trumpets and bowls are related to each other.  Look at the symbolism used, trumpets and bowls.  An angel sounds a trumpet which begins a judgment.  At some point later that angel pours out a bowl which completes the judgment.  That's why some of the judgments start off as a third, then go to full.  Serving made an excellent point in this post: I'm still waiting to read your reply on that one.

 

In case you missed my earlier post on the trumpet / bowl connection here's the link:

 

That's why chapter 12 and following mostly give additional details about the seals and trumpets in 6-11.  The seventh trumpet is the return of Christ.  No chronology has been rearranged.

 

 

Those who have been taught to follow the Revelation seals, trumpets, and vials in the exact order they are written will not pay attention to how those events relate to each other that gives the true order of events for the end.

 

Man's doctrines teaches against seeing the relation of events between the seals, trumpets, and vials. Regardless of what Church denomination one associates with, the tendency to preach against that relation should be discerned by all brethren.

[OneLight]

Those who have been taught to follow the Revelation seals, trumpets, and vials in the exact order they are written will not pay attention to how those events relate to each other that gives the true order of events for the end.

 

Man's doctrines teaches against seeing the relation of events between the seals, trumpets, and vials. Regardless of what Church denomination one associates with, the tendency to preach against that relation should be discerned by all brethren.

 

I disagree strongly. I, who follows them in sequence, do realize there are similarities. I also realize that they are not the same. Scripture tells us that the 7th seal brings in the 1st trumpet, not the first trumpet and first bowl.

Revelation 8:6

So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

I see no mention about any bowls/vials. It is not until Revelations 16:1 that we read:

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls[a] of the wrath of God on the earth.”

You see, those who believe in sequential events don't have to juggle similarities to make things fit. We take His word as He provides it.

[Salty]

The rider on the white horse is alluded to as the 1st Seal of Rev.6. But whether one believes that is our Lord Jesus, or the coming pseudo-Christ, that event is not sequential to the rest of the seals in that chapter.

 

With the 6th seal events, those events parallel events of the 7th trumpet and 7th vial, so I don't see how anyone could think that 6th seal happens prior to the sounding of the trumpets and pouring out of the vials.

 

In Rev.16:15, our Lord Jesus gave a warning to His Church, that He comes "as a thief", and said blessed are those who watch, lest one walks naked, and they see shame. He gave that within the 6th Vial events. By that He directly associated His command for His Church to be watching per the end of Matt.24, and per Apostle Paul and Peter about the day of the Lord events when He returns (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). And then with the 7th Vial poured out right after that admonition, the same final events of the 6th Seal and 7th Trumpet are shown, ending this present world.

 

Thus understanding the proper order of the 'events'... given in the seals, trumpets, and vials, is key, not the fact that those events were written down in a sequential  certain order.

[OneLight]

The rider on the white horse is alluded to as the 1st Seal of Rev.6. But whether one believes that is our Lord Jesus, or the coming pseudo-Christ, that event is not sequential to the rest of the seals in that chapter.

 

With the 6th seal events, those events parallel events of the 7th trumpet and 7th vial, so I don't see how anyone could think that 6th seal happens prior to the sounding of the trumpets and pouring out of the vials.

 

In Rev.16:15, our Lord Jesus gave a warning to His Church, that He comes "as a thief", and said blessed are those who watch, lest one walks naked, and they see shame. He gave that within the 6th Vial events. By that He directly associated His command for His Church to be watching per the end of Matt.24, and per Apostle Paul and Peter about the day of the Lord events when He returns (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). And then with the 7th Vial poured out right after that admonition, the same final events of the 6th Seal and 7th Trumpet are shown, ending this present world.

 

Thus understanding the proper order of the 'events'... given in the seals, trumpets, and vials, is key, not the fact that those events were written down in a sequential  certain order.

Really? What follows the sixth seal? The seventh seal. What does the seventh seal state?

Revelation 8:1-6

 

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

It seems that the sequence of numbers, and how John heard it laid out to him, are being ignored in order to overlay them. As I have said before, similarities do not equate equality.

[Salty]

Rev.6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

 

Rev.11

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

¹⁶ And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

¹⁷ Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

¹⁹ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

 

Rev.16

¹⁷ And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

¹⁸ And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

¹⁹ And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

²⁰ And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

²¹ And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

 

Those are more than similarities, they are the same event timing.

 

The day of Christ's wrath is on the last day of this world with His second coming, on the day of The Lord. These events of God's wrath were also given in the OT prophets about the day of The Lord events. Apostle Paul reiterated some of them with the "as a thief" timing in 1 Thess.5, as did Peter in 2 Pet.3:10 about the time of God's consuming fire burning the elements.

 

If the 6th Seal was to happen prior to the trumpets and vials, then it would mean the dragon's reign continues after Christ's coming on the day of The Lord with His final wrath of this world still pending. But per that 6th Seal, that is the time of God's wrath on the last day of this world, which is part of the day of The Lord events when Jesus returns.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

You said -
 

[quote]`With the 6th seal events, those events parallel events of the 7th trumpet and 7th vial, so I don't see how anyone could think that 6th seal happens prior to the sounding of the trumpets and pouring out of the vials.`

[Hindsfeet]

Rev 6:12 KJV - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 

If this is of a 'natural cosmic occurence', the next occasion is 3/20/15 - way too early for Sixth Trump/vial, not however, for a seal. The next 'natural' occurence of this phenomena will not happen again until 2022.

 

 

Rev 8:12 KJV - And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Rev 16:8 KJV - And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

 

These two dont appear to me, to be congruent.