ghtan Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 3, 2014 I think the confusion here is over the correct rendering of Rev 5:9-10, esp vs 10. The one quoted by Enoch 2021 - which say "we/us" - is from the KJV which is based on poorer manuscripts. Hence why nearly all other versions, e.g. NIV, ESV, NASB, NRSV, etc.., correct it to read "them/they" because they had access to better manuscripts. Then, as Last Daze rightly points out, since the 24 elders say "they/them," they cannot be the raptured church. (I know there are some die-hard KJV fans but it would be unwise to base our belief on a reading that nearly all other versions disagree with.) I am somewhat amused that Enoch 2021 is vigorously defending that the 24 elders is the raptured church when he said earlier that the rapture cannot be found in Revelation. Is it a tacit admission that without evidence of the rapture in chaps 4-5, pre-trib really has no case? (No offense; I trust we can have a dig at one another on this forum without getting all worked up about it.) As for Hebrews 11, it shows that the men and women of faith did not go to heaven - hence "heavenly" in v 16 - when their lives ended here on earth. That was the promised reward they did not receive IN THEIR TIME. It was because Jesus had not died on the cross to pay for all their sins. But once Jesus died and his blood washed away all their sins, they went to heaven (Eph 4:7-10). Otherwise how could they serve as the "crowd of witnesses" in 12:1? And so they were already in heaven when John got there in Rev 4. Just out of curiosity, Marilyn, where do you think people like Noah, Moses, etc. are now if they are not in heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,224 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,507 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Online Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) Hi ghtan, I believe they are in the General Assembly which is in heaven. (Heb.12: 21 - 23) These spirits of righteous men & women (pre-cross) are awaiting the New Jerusalem, which is the promise they had faith in God for. As regards for the pre-trib case, I have yet to present why I believe this. I will do this on an appropriate thread concerning Christ`s purpose for the Body of Christ. The rapture is but a detail of this. To me the pre/post discussion has its place but it becomes separate from God`s purposes & therefore looses credibility. People then tend to make up their own minds - escapism, or purifying ourselves, etc. It`s like 2 people describing the steering wheels of vehicles. They can argue all they like but in the end when it`s found out that one is a truck & one is a car, then the purposes make the use of the wheels relevant. Blessings, Marilyn. Edited November 3, 2014 by Marilyn C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted November 3, 2014 If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. Instead, that they are called elders suggests they are the spirits of prominent servants of God - perhaps Noah, Moses, Elijah, etc.. - from the past. Maybe including some of the apostles, all of whom except John had been martyred by then. But it would be somewhat anachronistic for the raptured end time church to be speaking to its first century apostle, e.g. in 5:5. =============================================================================================== If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. You disagree because nothing in the text "implies" it? How about if it "overtly" says it.... The Identity of the 24 Elders: The 24 Elders are Representatives of The Church. And if that's the Case (and it is as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4. Lets Identify these 24 Elders, First: - Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10) - only three are Identified in all of Scripture as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US ) - They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll; in fact, they are already in Heaven when John arrives. Bear in mind, The Royal Line (Judah) and The Priesthood (Levites) were to be kept separate as noted throughout the OT. The Church appears to have no such restriction.... A Closer Look: Peter says: (1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" Royal Priesthood: Kings and Priests John in Revelation says: (Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." John is including himself in this group of Kings and Priests with "us". Who else is John including in the "us"?? The ones that are washed from our sins in HIS Blood....."The Church" (Born Again Christians). Hmmm, any more clues? (Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." The 24 Elders Sang a New Song: Song of The Redeemed. Hast Redeemed "us"....How? By The Blood. From where? Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation = "The Church" Has made "us" what?: Kings and Priests. The 24 Elders are Kings and Priests and have been redeemed by the blood out of every kindred, tongue, kindred, and nation. Who is that describing......"Born Again Christians/"The Church". Who the 24 Elders Can't Be, (Characteristics): Tribulation Saints: 24 Elders: * Not Crowned *Crowned, casts them on the Glassy Sea (Rev 4:10) * Palms in Hands *Harps, No Palms *Saved "out of" Great Tribulation * Kept "out of" Great Tribulation (Rev 3:10) * Stand Before Thrones * Sit on Thrones (Rev 4:4) * Serve HIM Night and Day * Reign as Kings and Priests (1 Cor 6:2-3, Rev 5:10) Tribulation Saints were not recognized by John and he asked who they were (Rev 7:14). Who answered? One of the Elders. John never asks who the 24 Elders are..... Why should he, he knows who they are Can't be The Martyrs because they are "under" The Altar and were slain. 24 Elders Sit on Thrones, not "slain". Can't be Angels.... (Revelation 7:11) "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God," All the Angels stood round about the Throne...and who else? The 24 Elders. Clear Distinction. We are running out of contenders @ Light Speed. Can't be the 144,000, Obviously. **Also, if you compare Ezekiel's, Isaiah's, Daniel's vision of the Throne Room of GOD to John's Vision in Revelation, what's the ONLY Difference? Only in John's description do you find the 24 Elders!! "The Church" wasn't born until Pentecost, so the 24 Elders wouldn't be in Ezekiel's/Isaiah's/Daniel's visions. Are you still of the opinion the text doesn't "Imply" it? I know I am. The passage that you say identifies them as redeemed does no such thing. Let's look at it: And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10 If they were redeemed, wouldn't they have said something like "You have made us to be a kingdom....etc."? Nothing in that passage suggests that they are of the redeemed. In fact, if you look back in Revelation 4 you will see that the 24 elders are there along with 4 living creatures, the seven lamps (7 Spirits of God), and He who sits on the throne. The lamb is not there. The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship Him, who sits on the throne. Go to chapter 5, where its time to open the scroll, and the scene has changed. The lamb has appeared having seven horns and seven eyes (7 Spirits of God). The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship the Lamb singing a new song. Why? Because all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Jesus. The 24 elders were there before the lamb was slain. They can't represent the raptured church. In using your "process of elimination" method to determine who the 24 elders are you are assuming that you know every possibility of who they could be. I, for one, sure wouldn't go that far. There is so much in the spirit realm that we are oblivious to. All we know of it is what God has revealed of it. The fact that 24 elders are mentioned in Revelation does not mean that they have to represent some previously know entity or group. I don't know who the 24 elders are but I'm confident they are not representative of the raptured church. ============================================================================================== The passage that you say identifies them as redeemed does no such thing. Huh? I posted and outlined it, right here... (Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10 If they were redeemed, wouldn't they have said something like "You have made us to be a kingdom....etc."? Nothing in that passage suggests that they are of the redeemed. Ahh, I see the problem. You have a corrupted Westcott and Hort source. In this case the NASB. SEE discussion here: In the list of corrupted Bibles @ the Bottom, Please add the NASB. Thanks. In fact, if you look back in Revelation 4 you will see that the 24 elders are there along with 4 living creatures, the seven lamps (7 Spirits of God), and He who sits on the throne. The lamb is not there. The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship Him, who sits on the throne. Go to chapter 5, where its time to open the scroll, and the scene has changed. Are you "Implying" that the "Time Frame"/events being discussed in Revelation 4 is before Christ was crucified? What is Rev 1,2,3...... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus?? (Revelation 4:1) "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Showing John things...Hereafter, is After the Seven Churches. When were the 7 Churches established? And WHO was giving the judgments regarding the 7 Churches? In using your "process of elimination" method to determine who the 24 elders are you are assuming that you know every possibility of who they could be. I, for one, sure wouldn't go that far. There is so much in the spirit realm that we are oblivious to. This is an Argument from Ignorance (Fallacy) IN TOTO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I think the confusion here is over the correct rendering of Rev 5:9-10, esp vs 10. The one quoted by Enoch 2021 - which say "we/us" - is from the KJV which is based on poorer manuscripts. Hence why nearly all other versions, e.g. NIV, ESV, NASB, NRSV, etc.., correct it to read "them/they" because they had access to better manuscripts. Then, as Last Daze rightly points out, since the 24 elders say "they/them," they cannot be the raptured church. (I know there are some die-hard KJV fans but it would be unwise to base our belief on a reading that nearly all other versions disagree with.) I am somewhat amused that Enoch 2021 is vigorously defending that the 24 elders is the raptured church when he said earlier that the rapture cannot be found in Revelation. Is it a tacit admission that without evidence of the rapture in chaps 4-5, pre-trib really has no case? (No offense; I trust we can have a dig at one another on this forum without getting all worked up about it.) As for Hebrews 11, it shows that the men and women of faith did not go to heaven - hence "heavenly" in v 16 - when their lives ended here on earth. That was the promised reward they did not receive IN THEIR TIME. It was because Jesus had not died on the cross to pay for all their sins. But once Jesus died and his blood washed away all their sins, they went to heaven (Eph 4:7-10). Otherwise how could they serve as the "crowd of witnesses" in 12:1? And so they were already in heaven when John got there in Rev 4. Just out of curiosity, Marilyn, where do you think people like Noah, Moses, etc. are now if they are not in heaven? =============================================================================================================== The one quoted by Enoch 2021 - which say "we/us" - is from the KJV which is based on poorer manuscripts. Hence why nearly all other versions, e.g. NIV, ESV, NASB, NRSV, etc.., correct it to read "them/they" because they had access to better manuscripts. You have it backwards. The AKJV is GOD'S WORD. All the versions you depicted are based on the "Demonstrably" Corrupted Alexandrian Codices and are Westcott and Hort (heretics) editions, As Evidenced By.... The majority of ALL "new" translations are brought to you by: Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort....(affectionately known as Westcott and Hort). The demonstrable corrupt Manuscripts they used (all originated in Alexandria, Home of the Gnostics):* Codex Alexandrinus: found around 1630 brought to England. A fifth Century Manuscript containing the Entire New Testament. * Codex Siniaticus: found early 1800's by German Scholar Constantin von Tischendorf discovered it in a trash can in St Catherine's Monastery @ the Traditional Mt Sinai. Dated around 350 AD, is one of the 2 Oldest manuscripts of the Greek New Testament. * Codex Vaticanus: in the Vatican Library since @ least 1481 but not made available to scholars until the middle of the 19th Century. Dated around 325 AD, complete Greek New Testament. *** There are over 3,000 confirmed contradictions between the Vaticanus and Siniaticus in the FOUR GOSPELS alone!! *** All modern translations have their Primary Source documents buried in those 3 codices including the NIV. Others... If you are reading these Bibles, I would suggest to STOP what you are doing this second and conduct an IN-DEPTH study of Westcott and Hort and "your" Bible's source documents...... (NIV, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, NAB, REB, RSV, CEV, TEV, GNB, LIVING, PHILLIPS, NEW JERUSALEM, NEW CENTURY, and the New Word Translation). Last 12 Verses of Mark (16:9-20) Most Modern Translations there will be a marginal notation that these verses were added later and question the authenticity. They are not found in the 3 codices. In 150 AD, several Centuries before these codices, Irenaeus quotes these verses in his commentary! ahhh, Houston we have a problem. 2nd Century AD Hypolatus also comments on these verses. Lets take a brief stop to have a listen (From their own lips)... Hort; April 3 1860, "But the book which has engaged me the most is Darwin. What may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with. My feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable". F.J Hort, Life of Hort, Vol 1, p. 146 In a Letter to the Archbishop of Canterbury: Westcott wrote, "No one now I suppose hold that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history- I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did". Life of Westcott, Vol 1, p. 69 Hort said, "I am now inclined to think that no such state as Eden (I mean the popular notion) ever existed, and that Adam's fall in no degree differed from the fall of each of his descendants". F.J.A Hort, Life of Hort, Vol 1, p. 78 Westcott wrote, "Christians are themselves in a true sense 'Christs'. B.F. Westcott, The Epistles of St. John, p. 73 Hort, Letter to F.D. Maurice... "Finally St. Paul's mysterious words 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins'- I have labored so utterly to apprehend in any measure what this idea is, that I hope you will deepen and widen the hints you have already given. I am quite conscious that I have given but a few distinct objections to the common belief, (redemption through the blood of the Lamb) in what I have written, but so indeed it must be; language cannot accurately define the twinge of shrinking horror which mixes with my thought when I hear the popular notion asserted". Arthur Fenton Hort, Life and Letters of F. J. A. Vol 1, p. 122 Hort write to Westcott, " I have been persuaded for many years the Mary-worship and Jesus-worship have very much in common and their causes and results". F. J. A. Life of Hort, Vol 2, p. 50 Hort speaking to 1 Peter 1:4 'reserved in heaven': "It is hardly necessary to say that this whole local language is figurative folly". F.J.A, The First Epistle to Peter, p. 39 Westcott wrote,"How certainly I should have been claimed a heretic". B.F. Life of Westcott, Vol 1, p. 233 You said it!! I would suggest you do your own Due Diligence with these 2 gentleman and come to your own conclusion....it won't take long. Start here: Ghostly Guild Hermes Club The Eranus Club....with Arthur Balfour F.J.A Hort, The First Epistle of Peter, p. 39 Arthur Fenton Hort, Life and Letters of F.J.A. Hort, vol 1 F.J.A. Hort, Life of Hort, Vol 1 and 2 B.F. Westcott, Life and Letters of Wescott B.F. Westcott, The Epistles of St. John B.F. Westcott, The Epistle to the Hebrews If you want to be quick, just investigate their relationship with Helena Blavatsky (Mother of Theosophy). I am somewhat amused that Enoch 2021 is vigorously defending that the 24 elders is the raptured church when he said earlier that the rapture cannot be found in Revelation. Well that's because your using a Strawman (Fallacy). "Saying the 24 Elders represent the Church" then saying "The Rapture cannot be found in Revelation"... is still consistent and valid. The latter in No Way refutes the former--- or vice versa. They could have been Raptured before Revelation, eh? Which is my position IN TOTO. 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Last Daze Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 3, 2014 If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. Instead, that they are called elders suggests they are the spirits of prominent servants of God - perhaps Noah, Moses, Elijah, etc.. - from the past. Maybe including some of the apostles, all of whom except John had been martyred by then. But it would be somewhat anachronistic for the raptured end time church to be speaking to its first century apostle, e.g. in 5:5. =============================================================================================== If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. You disagree because nothing in the text "implies" it? How about if it "overtly" says it.... The Identity of the 24 Elders: The 24 Elders are Representatives of The Church. And if that's the Case (and it is as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4. Lets Identify these 24 Elders, First: - Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10) - only three are Identified in all of Scripture as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US ) - They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll; in fact, they are already in Heaven when John arrives. Bear in mind, The Royal Line (Judah) and The Priesthood (Levites) were to be kept separate as noted throughout the OT. The Church appears to have no such restriction.... A Closer Look: Peter says: (1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" Royal Priesthood: Kings and Priests John in Revelation says: (Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." John is including himself in this group of Kings and Priests with "us". Who else is John including in the "us"?? The ones that are washed from our sins in HIS Blood....."The Church" (Born Again Christians). Hmmm, any more clues? (Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." The 24 Elders Sang a New Song: Song of The Redeemed. Hast Redeemed "us"....How? By The Blood. From where? Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation = "The Church" Has made "us" what?: Kings and Priests. The 24 Elders are Kings and Priests and have been redeemed by the blood out of every kindred, tongue, kindred, and nation. Who is that describing......"Born Again Christians/"The Church". Who the 24 Elders Can't Be, (Characteristics): Tribulation Saints: 24 Elders: * Not Crowned *Crowned, casts them on the Glassy Sea (Rev 4:10) * Palms in Hands *Harps, No Palms *Saved "out of" Great Tribulation * Kept "out of" Great Tribulation (Rev 3:10) * Stand Before Thrones * Sit on Thrones (Rev 4:4) * Serve HIM Night and Day * Reign as Kings and Priests (1 Cor 6:2-3, Rev 5:10) Tribulation Saints were not recognized by John and he asked who they were (Rev 7:14). Who answered? One of the Elders. John never asks who the 24 Elders are..... Why should he, he knows who they are Can't be The Martyrs because they are "under" The Altar and were slain. 24 Elders Sit on Thrones, not "slain". Can't be Angels.... (Revelation 7:11) "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God," All the Angels stood round about the Throne...and who else? The 24 Elders. Clear Distinction. We are running out of contenders @ Light Speed. Can't be the 144,000, Obviously. **Also, if you compare Ezekiel's, Isaiah's, Daniel's vision of the Throne Room of GOD to John's Vision in Revelation, what's the ONLY Difference? Only in John's description do you find the 24 Elders!! "The Church" wasn't born until Pentecost, so the 24 Elders wouldn't be in Ezekiel's/Isaiah's/Daniel's visions. Are you still of the opinion the text doesn't "Imply" it? I know I am. The passage that you say identifies them as redeemed does no such thing. Let's look at it: And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10 If they were redeemed, wouldn't they have said something like "You have made us to be a kingdom....etc."? Nothing in that passage suggests that they are of the redeemed. In fact, if you look back in Revelation 4 you will see that the 24 elders are there along with 4 living creatures, the seven lamps (7 Spirits of God), and He who sits on the throne. The lamb is not there. The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship Him, who sits on the throne. Go to chapter 5, where its time to open the scroll, and the scene has changed. The lamb has appeared having seven horns and seven eyes (7 Spirits of God). The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship the Lamb singing a new song. Why? Because all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Jesus. The 24 elders were there before the lamb was slain. They can't represent the raptured church. In using your "process of elimination" method to determine who the 24 elders are you are assuming that you know every possibility of who they could be. I, for one, sure wouldn't go that far. There is so much in the spirit realm that we are oblivious to. All we know of it is what God has revealed of it. The fact that 24 elders are mentioned in Revelation does not mean that they have to represent some previously know entity or group. I don't know who the 24 elders are but I'm confident they are not representative of the raptured church. ============================================================================================== The passage that you say identifies them as redeemed does no such thing. Huh? I posted and outlined it, right here... (Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10 If they were redeemed, wouldn't they have said something like "You have made us to be a kingdom....etc."? Nothing in that passage suggests that they are of the redeemed. Ahh, I see the problem. You have a corrupted Westcott and Hort source. In this case the NASB. SEE discussion here: In the list of corrupted Bibles @ the Bottom, Please add the NASB. Thanks. In fact, if you look back in Revelation 4 you will see that the 24 elders are there along with 4 living creatures, the seven lamps (7 Spirits of God), and He who sits on the throne. The lamb is not there. The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship Him, who sits on the throne. Go to chapter 5, where its time to open the scroll, and the scene has changed. Are you "Implying" that the "Time Frame"/events being discussed in Revelation 4 is before Christ was crucified? What is Rev 1,2,3...... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus?? (Revelation 4:1) "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Showing John things...Hereafter, is After the Seven Churches. When were the 7 Churches established? And WHO was giving the judgments regarding the 7 Churches? In using your "process of elimination" method to determine who the 24 elders are you are assuming that you know every possibility of who they could be. I, for one, sure wouldn't go that far. There is so much in the spirit realm that we are oblivious to. This is an Argument from Ignorance (Fallacy) IN TOTO Why, oh why do I let myself get sucked into meaningless rapture debates, especially with those of an arrogant disposition?!?!? The best rebuttal to the pre-trib fallacy is in the passing of time. I just hope that those who believe it don't do so to the exclusion of plan B. Hope for the best and plan for the worst. It's simply the most prudent thing to do. Wouldn't you agree Enoch2021? Just be ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I just hope the pre-tribers aren't to disappointed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Why, oh why do I let myself get sucked into meaningless rapture debates, especially with those of an arrogant disposition?!?!? The best rebuttal to the pre-trib fallacy is in the passing of time. I just hope that those who believe it don't do so to the exclusion of plan B. Hope for the best and plan for the worst. It's simply the most prudent thing to do. Wouldn't you agree Enoch2021? Just be ready. ============================================================================================= It would be less frustrating for folks if they did their homework and paid closer attention to detail; instead of, contriving then labeling someones "disposition"....which is a diversion away from the Facts of the Matter. Or review all the evidence-----> then Hypothesize. Instead of Hypothesize, then-----> contort the evidence to fit "a priori" adherence's. The best rebuttal to the pre-trib fallacy is in the passing of time. What "Fallacy" is that Specifically? The passing of time is the Best Argument? It's not an argument, it's a conceptual relationship between 2 objects. Hope for the best and plan for the worst. It's simply the most prudent thing to do. Wouldn't you agree Enoch2021? Just be ready. I disagree.... (2 Peter 1:19) "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:" (1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 3, 2014 Why, oh why do I let myself get sucked into meaningless rapture debates, especially with those of an arrogant disposition?!?!? The best rebuttal to the pre-trib fallacy is in the passing of time. I just hope that those who believe it don't do so to the exclusion of plan B. Hope for the best and plan for the worst. It's simply the most prudent thing to do. Wouldn't you agree Enoch2021? Just be ready. ============================================================================================= It would be less frustrating for folks if they did their homework and paid closer attention to detail; instead of, contriving then labeling someones "disposition"....which is a diversion away from the Facts of the Matter. Or review all the evidence-----> then Hypothesize. Instead of Hypothesize, then-----> contort the evidence to fit "a priori" adherence's. The best rebuttal to the pre-trib fallacy is in the passing of time. What "Fallacy" is that Specifically? The passing of time is the Best Argument? It's not an argument, it's a conceptual relationship between 2 objects. Hope for the best and plan for the worst. It's simply the most prudent thing to do. Wouldn't you agree Enoch2021? Just be ready. I disagree.... (2 Peter 1:19) "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:" (1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Have a great life Enoch2021. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Have a great life Enoch2021. You also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,224 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,507 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Online Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Hi Enoch2021, I do enjoy reading your posts which are presented so well with clear, precise truth for those who would work through it. I also learnt much concerning the various Bible versions. So thank you for that work & it is a pleasure to read a brother`s work upholding the truth of God`s word. Blessings, Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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