Being led by Holy Spirit into wilderness & away from local church?

[zhavoney]

Elijah went it alone. Moses went it alone. Christ went it alone. I went it alone. But none of Us were really alone were we? They are few who know that God is truly there to hold them up. It is the Spirit of God that leads us on and gives us the strength to continue. 

 

9 For the Lord's portion is His people; Jacob is the place of His inheritance. 10 "He found him in a desert land And in the wasteland, a howling wilderness; He encircled him, He instructed him, He kept him as the apple of His eye. 11 As an eagle stirs up its nest, Hovers over its young, Spreading out its wings, taking them up, Carrying them on its wings, 12 So the Lord alone led him, And there was no foreign god with him. 13 "He made him ride in the heights of the earth, That he might eat the produce of the fields; He made him draw honey from the rock, And oil from the flinty rock; 14Curds from the cattle, and milk of the flock, With fat of lambs; And rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, With the choicest wheat; And you drank wine, the blood of the grapes.

[GoldenEagle]

Generally, when a person or group is led out into the 'wilderness', it is a time of training/learning.

 

For me, most of the churches (charismatic and pentacostal) in my area were heavily involved in shepherding. I was struggling as the doctrine did not appear as biblical but every church I knew of taught the shepherding doctrine. I could not figure it out as to my knowledge, I was the only person I knew of who thought something was seriously wrong, yet, I could not accept that I could be the only one who saw it as wrong. I thought the problem was mine, and not so many pastors of local churches. I separated from the local churches. And did a lot of prayer and study. It was during that time I got onto the internet amd on my first forum. When I talked to the people on the forums, which included 3 or 4 pastors, they were all shocked that the shepherding doctrines were still being taught in my area, as the originaters of that movement had already disbanded, with many having repented. It was surprising to me to find people who believed just like I did. I no longer had to struggle with the issue.

 

Another time, God showed me something in scripture that I had never heard taught by anyone. It was another wilderness time of prayer and scripture study. I again struggled with the idea that I was the only person who say this, but in the end, I was led to read a little known paper by a well known person, which was essentially about the doctrine and in agreement with what I believed God had shown me. 

 

A third time, I was struggling with not being allowed as a woman to do, even though it was something I felt called to. I separated and studied, and in my separation, met someone outside of my area who mentored me and trained me to follow the calling. That was life changing and truthfully, gave me such a differing perspective that I am no longer reticent of serving God without permission from a pastor (a shepherding doctrine).

 

So, whenever I have been led to separate from a local congregation, it was a time of learning and change.      

That's an interesting perspective. I do see how it can be a time of learning and change. However, with the exception of perhaps Christ, I don't see that example in Scripture? I can certainly see where the shepherding doctrine would be dangerous.  

My personal experience is that I was probably fearful of getting close to other Believers when I was far away from the local church for about 2 years. I was also scared of anyone wanting to hold me accountable. Oh I still went to church. I got to the service late, warmed a pew, left early, and wasn't involved in any other Bible study, Sunday School, or small group.

God bless,

GE

 

[GoldenEagle]

2. Israel (with a focus on Numbers 13 & 14 - added by me)

Here's how I see these two chapters:

*Israel – a nation wanders the wilderness due to unbelief and disobedience, not being led by God’s Spirit (Nu. 13 & 14)

“Wilderness wandering” is often a term referring to the plight of Israel due to unbelief and disobedience. After God delivered Israel from Egypt in Exodus 1-12, Israel sent scouts into the land God had promised Israel. This is the story of the twelve spies including Joshua and Caleb in Numbers 13 and 14.

Ten (10) spies said the land flowed with milk and honey yet was inhabited by giants. Israel became very scared and believed this bad report from the 10 spied. They grumbled against the Lord and even said to one another that they should choose another leader (replacing Moses) and go back to Egypt. See Numbers 14:1-4

Joshua and Caleb dissented saying that if God delighted in Israel He would bring victory. They also said the Lord was with Israel and not to fear the inhabitants of the land. The assembly of Israel set themselves to stone Joshua and Caleb but God intervened. See Numbers 14:5-10

Moses intercedes for Israel in Numbers 14:13-19.

God pardons Israel but promises judgment. The PUNISHMENT was Israel was to wander the wilderness. 40 years for each of the 40 days Israel spied out the land of Canaan. Not one of the generation of rebellious Israelites was to enter the promised land. (Num. 14:20-30, 32)

While the Israelites complained that their children would become prey to the giants in Canaan (Num. 14:3), God said that the next generation would know the land their parents had rejected. Of interest the children of the rebellious generation would suffer as well as shepherds in the wilderness as consequences to their parents faithlessness. (Nu. 14:31,33)

The 10 spies who gave a bad report died by plague. (Nu. 14:36-38) Only Joshua and Caleb survived.

Israel stubbornly tried to go into battle after God told them what their punishment was to be (wilderness wandering) but were defeated by the Canaanites. (Nu. 14:39-45)

Thoughts on Israel going into the wilderness?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

That's a great story Qnts.

 

I think that it's essential to separate from a church that doesn't follow the Bible (of course),

but also churches that don't minister to your individual needs. And if a bit of "wandering" is

the result of that, God is still with us, so fear not to wander.

 

Still, I think it's important to associate with fellow believers and also stretch our socially to

be around others that don't minister to us but we have to minister to them, overtly or covertly...

as needs must.

 

The only ones that can direct our paths in this is either ourselves or God... and there's the rub.

What are we doing in regard to our Sanctification or our Servitude to our Lord in what we are doing.

But if we keep the Lord in our minds as we do all things... He is faithful and just and will guide us through

any environment, spiritual or otherwise.

 

Some of my strongest growth periods have been outside/away from congregation... and much of my growth

has been when surrounded by believers... both have been good.

Likewise, some of my weakest periods have come while separated from brothers&sisters in Christ... and some

of my biggest stumbling blocks have been other believers (particularly those that were overly legalistic and

judgmental)... both have kept me from staying centered in Christ.. not good.

 

The only constant throughout both venues of learning was God.

And then, how my attitude was towards Him as my Lord and the Lamp onto my feet at any particular time.

I would agree that time away from the local body of Believers can be either good or bad. I do believe that it should be for a time.

 

False doctrine is one thing... But how many times is it simply we don't agree on personal convictions or personal preferences?

 

Sometimes I wonder if we separate from the local body of Believers because we are wanting to grow or because we simply don't want to deal with people? People are mean, angry, gossips, self-centered, and messy. It's easier to just leave than to deal with problems. But where is that found in Scripture?

The Church is made up of sinners of who I'm one of the worst. Yet am I not called to love God and love my neighbor as myself?

 

These are my struggles. Thanks for sharing.

God bless,

GE

 

[GoldenEagle]

Hi Golden Eagle,

 

A very interesting & important question. I think I would have to ask first, `What is your definition of the local church, & what do you call the wilderness?`

it may seem obvious to some but we have been doing things differently over the past few years & before I share I just want to clarify what you mean.

 

Marilyn.

Good point Marylin C. Knowing how we are using the terms is important to not speak over one another in the discussion.   

To me the local church are the people who we live, play, laugh, cry and grow with in our local church and community. While I see the value of online fellowship it shouldn't replace meeting with people face-to-face IMO.

"Going into the wilderness" is what I see the tendency in Western Christianity in particular for a Christian to go at it alone. It's the idea that I don't need the local church (physically other Believers) and can run this race towards Christ on my own. It's as if our individualist culture in the West supersedes our need for community in ironing sharpening iron. I don't see this as much of a problem in collective societies in Africa and Asia. My friends there wonder sometimes at our island mentality to our faith. I think too we forget that while salvation is personal Christ died for the collective salvation of those who believe. Yet a majority of Paul's letters are addressed to multiple people (Believers) living in community - the church in Rome (Romans), the church in Ephesus (Ephesians), the churches in Galatia (Galatians), the church Colossae (Colossians), etc.

That said, Worthy has been a great tool God has used in stretching me for example and challenging me to really dig into Scripture instead of simply believing what I've been taught growing up in church.

How do you view these terms Marylin C? What Scripture do you think of when you consider these terms?

 

God bless,

GE

 

[GoldenEagle]

Intimacy with God, learning about inner personal life and self, thus becoming more sensitive to spirituality, aka discerning as external stimuli do not constantly turn attention to the worldly things. If we don't know ourselves properly the enemy has better chances of fooling us around.

But isn't our identity found in Christ? What do you mean by knowing ourselves properly? Isn't the enemy regularly trying to get us to fail or fool us? 

Please explain your thoughts further.

God bless,

GE

 

[GoldenEagle]

Elijah went it alone. Moses went it alone. Christ went it alone. I went it alone. But none of Us were really alone were we? They are few who know that God is truly there to hold them up. It is the Spirit of God that leads us on and gives us the strength to continue. 

 

9 For the Lord's portion is His people; Jacob is the place of His inheritance. 10 "He found him in a desert land And in the wasteland, a howling wilderness; He encircled him, He instructed him, He kept him as the apple of His eye. 11 As an eagle stirs up its nest, Hovers over its young, Spreading out its wings, taking them up, Carrying them on its wings, 12 So the Lord alone led him, And there was no foreign god with him. 13 "He made him ride in the heights of the earth, That he might eat the produce of the fields; He made him draw honey from the rock, And oil from the flinty rock; 14Curds from the cattle, and milk of the flock, With fat of lambs; And rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, With the choicest wheat; And you drank wine, the blood of the grapes.

I do agree the Spirit of God leads those who believe in Jesus. I also agree God gives us the strength to carry on. Finally, I agree we are never alone as God is with us.

Moses was fearful for his life and fled. Moses motivation was not reverence/love for God or following His Spirit. God still used this and made Moses into a leader of Israel.

Elijah was fearful for his life and fled. Moses motivation was not reverence/love for God or following His Spirit. Right after killing the prophets of Baal. God still used this to fulfill His purpose in selecting new Kings for Syria and Israel as well as replacing Elijah (with Elisha).

Christ was never alone. He was with his disciples to the end. Jesus was united with the Father and Holy Spirit until the end.

What you are quoting is Deut 32:9-14. God found Jacob in the wilderness I guess is what you are referring to. Context is important in any discussion of Scripture. If you look at the context of this passage it goes back to Deut. 31:30 with Moses farewell song. The song is a reminder to Israel of where they came from and Who they belong to. Hopefully we can agree this passage is not an encouragement for people to go out into the wilderness to be found by God?

God bless,

GE

[Diatheosis]

Indeed our identity ought to be established on the solid bedrock foundation of Christ. What I mean, is that even though congregational relationship is of extreme importance, we do well to dive deeper into the psychology of how we function as individuals. Taking good time for profound contemplation of God's Word, we do become more aware of our thought processes and how we feel about things. Ie. more discerning and spiritually sensitive.

 

From personal experience, I can say sometimes I ached to have some companion, but in the long run to press against God's presence provided me with something no other human being could ever have been able to do. Sometimes wandering in the desert does not have to mean utmost wilderness, but can also mean more of a spiritual condition and landscape. And it's at the times of personal loneliness when the enemy tries to knock our defense down, when we are not surrounded by nice people or good friends, when our stability in Christ is tested yet again.

 

To survive this dark night of the soul, as it is referred to at times, releases something from God that will make you a real torch of the gospel in this world. Facing my own mortality in a very real sense is probably one of the best things I could ever have hoped for, although it certainly did not feel like that when it happened, since that was at a time I did not believe in supernatural or such. It was just to face my death with calmness, trying to convince myself it was better that way, and that soon all suffering would end. When I realized I wasn't going to die as of yet, that really pumped some new life in my veins. Then it was only to survive the muddy waters of new age to find myself on the shore of salvation. There's always new life in God.

 

Sometimes you can walk in wilderness even you are surrounded by people. What matters is that you find your way out of there. Jesus did not stay out of the reach for longer periods because there was a job to be done. Likewise, I believe that even though these intense periods of loneliness clarify many things for us, we live to deliver the message of salvation. And what kind of a life it is, yet better is to come.

[crochetlady]

Not being involved in a local church can result from a variety of circumstances.   We'd moved to a small community a number of years ago intending to support the small local Baptist church because we are Baptist and at the time - there was a good Bible teaching pastor.  What we hadn't known was that the community was Chek / Catholic -- all we knew was that it was a very small community with a lot for sale that we could afford.  We'd lived out in the country and didn't really know anything about the town.  We'd lived in other small communities and did just fine -- but Now the church has changed pastors several times and doesn't really teach anything.  There Is a church 45 minutes from us, but that is Not local.  So -- my husband can travel and it's no longer practical for Me to travel that distance.  So -- I have 'church' via T.V.  Dr. Jeremiah and other preachers on Sunday mornings. 

   But I Do miss being part of a church service -- and now that it gets darker lots earlier -- my night driving doesn't allow for  much driving, either.  But I DO share on various Forums.   And I enjoy Bible study / researching / sharing with others. 

  So -- to simply choose to Not fellowship with other believers is Not to our well being / advantage. 

[Marilyn C]

Hi GoldenEagle,

 

This topic has been very interesting & I have appreciated reading the other comments. We all have our journey in the Lord & different experiences along the way. Thank you for opening it up to us to discuss. Now I have a few thoughts & some personal experiences too.

 

1. The Examples.

I do not believe that the examples of Moses & Elijah are applicable to the Body of Christ. Those people were physically separated from their nation, Israel for a time. The believers cannot be separated from the Body of Christ which is a spiritual Body. We can of course harden ourselves to the Holy Spirit & over time fall away from the faith.

Some believers, like crotchetlady find themselves physically not seeing other believers, but the Holy Spirit will still help them to receive from the Body – through letters, phone calls, internet & visiting others further away when they can.

 

 

2. The Body of Christ.

The Body of Christ is one Body & the Holy Spirit tells us –

`For even as the Body is one & yet has many members…..But now God has placed (set) the members, each one of them, in the Body, just as He desired.` (1 Cor. 12: 12 – 18)

Someone may sit in a public church meeting & not be a believer, in the Body. So being in or out of a public meeting is not a criteria for being in the Body of Christ or in the wilderness.

 

 

3. Our Functioning.

I really love the picture Paul writes in Ephesians concerning the growth of the Body –

`…Christ, from whom the whole Body being fitted & held together by that which every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the Body for the building up of itself in love. `(Eph. 4: 16)

I`m sure as crotchetlady speaks to others that `every joint supplies.` That encouragement, comfort, edification & exhortation flows to each other for their building up.

Over the years I have been blessed to have been taught God`s word, given opportunities for expression of gifting, had great fellowship etc all within different denominations. However my husband & I have come to realize, with others that the formal, public meeting once a week in a pew, is not the only way to function as believers. Thus we now, by God`s Holy Spirit are functioning in a relational network situation. This we find to be most fulfilling relationally & fruitfully as we are now moving into helping our disciples (people we mentor) disciple (mentor) others. (like spiritual grandchildren) Note we still have friends & family that function in the denominational setting.

People often asked us, `Where do you go?` Meaning what religious organization do you belong to. They tended to think that we were either backslidden or in the wilderness. Over time however it has shown that we do relate, pray, teach, care, get involved with people`s lives, minister, etc. etc. I believe we are in a time where there are multiple ways to function, as well as a formal Sunday meeting in a traditional sense.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by Marilyn C