The 4 Spirits / Winds of Heaven.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

I am enjoying this discussion, hope you are too. It is good to look at God`s word & I believe we are finding things out by the Holy Spirit to help us understand these passages. So by your comments I can see we need to go a bit deeper into God`s word.

We are looking at this Ephah, basket that is going forth with a woman inside & a lead talent covering.

`This is an ephah that goes forth. He also said, This is their resemblance through all the earth. And behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: & this is a woman sitting inside the basket, then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he thrust her down into the ephah, & threw the lead cover over its mouth.` (Zech. 5: 6 - 8)

Now the Ephah & the lead talent were both used for measuring.

Ephah – a measurement for capacity.
Lead Talent – a measurement of weight. (approx 75 lbs)

Thus we see two examples of measurement indicating `buying & selling` - economic activity. Having `wickedness` in the ephah, clearly shows that this refers to unjust dealings

Amos also talks of this –

`Hear this, you who swallow up the needy, & make the poor of the land fail, saying: “When will the New Moon be past that we may sell grain? And the Sabbath, that we may trade our wheat? Making the ephah small & the shekel large, falsifying the balances by deceit,....” (Amos 8: 4 & 5)

The people of Israel used these measurements & knew quite well that God required them to have just dealings with each other when `buying & selling.` Thus this Hebrew idiom (Zech. 6: 5 – 11) would be quite recognisable as a picture of bad economic dealings.



 

[Marilyn C]

Next we need to look at `inflation.` You said `the passages in Revelation (6: 5 & 6) are not depicting / suggesting a “just” or “unjust” measure.....it`s referring to Inflation. However Enoch, you may not realise it, but inflation is unjust. It is based on man`s interest/debt system of usury. (An unjust monetary measure.)

God told the people of Israel that they were not to have usury for themselves.

Usury – Heb. `nashak,` meaning to oppress with interest on a loan.

Our World Economic (buying & selling / financial) system is based on usury. Fractional reserve banking has much to do with it. For example –

`If the reserve (Federal - Private bank) requirement is 10%, a bank that receives a $100 deposit may lend out $90 of that deposit. If the borrower then write a cheque to someone who deposits the $90, the bank receiving that deposit can lend out $81. As the process continues, the banking system can expand the initial deposit of $100 into a maximum, of $1,000 of money.`

When you put your money into the bank, it does not stay there. The bank only keeps a relatively small amount of money sitting around to satisfy the withdrawal demands of account holders. If all of us went down to the banks right now & demanded our money, that would create a major problem.

If I put $100 into the bank & the bank lends out $90 of those dollars to you, now it looks like there are $190 floating around. I have `$100` in my bank account & you have `$90` that you just borrowed.

The new debt that you have taken on ($90) has `created` more money. But of course you are going to end up paying more than $90 to the bank, so more debt has been created than the amount of money that has been created.

And that is one of the big problems with our financial system. It is designed so that the amount of debt & the amount of money are supposed to be perpetually expanding, & the amount of debt created is always greater than the amount of money that is created.

So is it any wonder that the USA (& the world) is swamped with trillions of dollars of debt. And we know what Proverbs says –

`The rich rules over the poor, & the borrower is servant to the lender.` (Prov. 22: 7)

This is a big subject but that gives us an idea of how more money is `created,` by debt / interest than is really there. This then in turn causes prices for goods & services etc to be increasing – thus inflation....till bubbles & crashes. Definitely an unjust system which God will judge.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

[seandavids]

From another thread this topic has arisen & I thought it would be good to explore & discuss.

 

Here were my initial thoughts from the other thread as a starting point.

`Now I lifted up my eyes again & looked, & behold, four chariots were coming forth from between the two mountains; & the mountains were bronze mountains. With the first chariot were red horses, with the second chariot black horses, with the third chariot strong dappled horses.

Then I spoke & said to the angel who was speaking with me, "What are these, my lord?" And the angel answered & said to me, "These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing before the Lord of all the earth, with one of which the black horses are going forth to the north country; & the white ones go forth after them, while the dappled ones go forth to the south country.

When the strong ones went out, they were eager to go to patrol the earth" And he said, "Go, patrol the earth." So they patrolled the earth. Then he cried out to me & spoke to me saying, "See, those who are going to the land of the north have appeased My wrath in the land of the north. ` (Zech. 6: 1 - 8)

Here we see God sending out these spirits to operate in the predominant powers of the earth. God is bringing them to judgment. We see these same spirits in Daniel 7. Daniel sees these spirits as `winds,` however the Hebrew word - `ruwach` is the same for spirits/winds. And in Daniel we see these predominant powers, from an earthly perspective, coming up one at a time, but still operating at the same time.

How wonderful that we can see from scripture, I believe, what God is doing in our present world bringing these great powers to judgment.

Who & what do you think God is telling us are the 4 spirits / winds of heaven?`

 

 

Marilyn.

 

biblically spirits are angels, at least the ones sent by God

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

I am enjoying this discussion, hope you are too. It is good to look at God`s word & I believe we are finding things out by the Holy Spirit to help us understand these passages. So by your comments I can see we need to go a bit deeper into God`s word.

We are looking at this Ephah, basket that is going forth with a woman inside & a lead talent covering.

`This is an ephah that goes forth. He also said, This is their resemblance through all the earth. And behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: & this is a woman sitting inside the basket, then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he thrust her down into the ephah, & threw the lead cover over its mouth.` (Zech. 5: 6 - 8)

Now the Ephah & the lead talent were both used for measuring.

Ephah – a measurement for capacity.

Lead Talent – a measurement of weight. (approx 75 lbs)

Thus we see two examples of measurement indicating `buying & selling` - economic activity. Having `wickedness` in the ephah, clearly shows that this refers to unjust dealings

Amos also talks of this –

`Hear this, you who swallow up the needy, & make the poor of the land fail, saying: “When will the New Moon be past that we may sell grain? And the Sabbath, that we may trade our wheat? Making the ephah small & the shekel large, falsifying the balances by deceit,....” (Amos 8: 4 & 5)

The people of Israel used these measurements & knew quite well that God required them to have just dealings with each other when `buying & selling.` Thus this Hebrew idiom (Zech. 6: 5 – 11) would be quite recognisable as a picture of bad economic dealings.

 

 

 

===================================================================================================================

 

 

And again...

 

1.  It's not, in this specific case....

0374   //  hpya  //  'eyphah   //  ay-faw'  //  or (shortened)

   //  hpa  //  'ephah   //  ay-faw'  //

of Egyptian derivation; TWOT - 82; n f

AV - ephah 34, measure(s) 6; 40

1) ephah

1a) a dry measure of quantity, equal to 3 seahs, 10 omers; the same

as the liquid measure bath; (about 9 imperial gallons (40 l),

rabbinical writings give sizes of one-half this amount)

 1b) the receptacle for measuring or holding that amount.   

 

 = so you can see it.  There is no Qualitative or Quanitative Judgement associated with it in these passages....it's not even implied.  Anything you extrapolate from it is nonsensical and contrived. 

 

Is a Gallon Jug just or unjust?

Context context context....

 

(Zechariah 5:8) "And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof."

 

This is a Receptacle.  He didn't cast "Wickedness" into a measurement.    He didn't cast a lead weight on the mouth of an Economic Aspect.

(Zechariah 5:10) "Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?"

Are they "bearing" a measurement or are they "bearing" a Receptacle?

Also a Measurement doesn't = Economic or Financial Situation.  Does 12 ounces/grams = Financial Concerns or a Recipe?  You need "context", correct? (SEE: previous)

 

 

 

 

** Is there any Implied connotation in the remote vicinity with "Just" or "Unjust" in these passages??....

 

(Exodus 16:36) "Now an omer is the tenth part of an ephah."

 

(Leviticus 5:11) " But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering."

 

(Leviticus 6:19-20) "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,  {20} This is the offering of Aaron and of his sons, which they shall offer unto the LORD in the day when he is anointed; the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a meat offering perpetual, half of it in the morning, and half thereof at night."

 

(Numbers 5:15) "Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance."

 

(Numbers 28:5-6) "And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil.  {6} It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD."

 

(Judges 6:19) " And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of flour: the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it."

 

(Ruth 2:17) "So she gleaned in the field until even, and beat out that she had gleaned: and it was about an ephah of barley."

 

(1 Samuel 1:24) " And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of the LORD in Shiloh: and the child was young."

 

(1 Samuel 17:17) "And Jesse said unto David his son, Take now for thy brethren an ephah of this parched corn, and these ten loaves, and run to the camp to thy brethren;"

 

(Isaiah 5:10) "Yea, ten acres of vineyard shall yield one bath, and the seed of an homer shall yield an ephah."

 

(Isaiah 60:6) "The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD."

 

(Ezekiel 45:11) "The ephah and the bath shall be of one measure, that the bath may contain the tenth part of an homer, and the ephah the tenth part of an homer: the measure thereof shall be after the homer."

 

(Ezekiel 45:24) "And he shall prepare a meat offering of an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and an hin of oil for an ephah."

 

(Ezekiel 46:5) "And the meat offering shall be an ephah for a ram, and the meat offering for the lambs as he shall be able to give, and an hin of oil to an ephah."

 

(Ezekiel 46:7) "And he shall prepare a meat offering, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and for the lambs according as his hand shall attain unto, and an hin of oil to an ephah."

 

**Unless there is a "just/unjust" connotation describing the Ephah....then it's only a Measurement or a Receptacle (containing the measurement) dictated by CONTEXT!

 

Anything further?

[Enoch2021]

Next we need to look at `inflation.` You said `the passages in Revelation (6: 5 & 6) are not depicting / suggesting a “just” or “unjust” measure.....it`s referring to Inflation. However Enoch, you may not realise it, but inflation is unjust. It is based on man`s interest/debt system of usury. (An unjust monetary measure.)

God told the people of Israel that they were not to have usury for themselves.

Usury – Heb. `nashak,` meaning to oppress with interest on a loan.

Our World Economic (buying & selling / financial) system is based on usury. Fractional reserve banking has much to do with it. For example –

`If the reserve (Federal - Private bank) requirement is 10%, a bank that receives a $100 deposit may lend out $90 of that deposit. If the borrower then write a cheque to someone who deposits the $90, the bank receiving that deposit can lend out $81. As the process continues, the banking system can expand the initial deposit of $100 into a maximum, of $1,000 of money.`

When you put your money into the bank, it does not stay there. The bank only keeps a relatively small amount of money sitting around to satisfy the withdrawal demands of account holders. If all of us went down to the banks right now & demanded our money, that would create a major problem.

If I put $100 into the bank & the bank lends out $90 of those dollars to you, now it looks like there are $190 floating around. I have `$100` in my bank account & you have `$90` that you just borrowed.

The new debt that you have taken on ($90) has `created` more money. But of course you are going to end up paying more than $90 to the bank, so more debt has been created than the amount of money that has been created.

And that is one of the big problems with our financial system. It is designed so that the amount of debt & the amount of money are supposed to be perpetually expanding, & the amount of debt created is always greater than the amount of money that is created.

So is it any wonder that the USA (& the world) is swamped with trillions of dollars of debt. And we know what Proverbs says –

`The rich rules over the poor, & the borrower is servant to the lender.` (Prov. 22: 7)

This is a big subject but that gives us an idea of how more money is `created,` by debt / interest than is really there. This then in turn causes prices for goods & services etc to be increasing – thus inflation....till bubbles & crashes. Definitely an unjust system which God will judge.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

====================================================================================================================

 

 

Next we need to look at `inflation.` You said `the passages in Revelation (6: 5 & 6) are not depicting / suggesting a “just” or “unjust” measure.....it`s referring to Inflation. However Enoch, you may not realise it, but inflation is unjust. It is based on man`s interest/debt system of usury. (An unjust monetary measure.)

 

 

Marilyn, we want to know what GOD is saying or implying in these passages.  Not your "Spin" of 2nd, 3rd, 4th order extrapolated from vapor qualitative extensions.  Are you kidding with this?

 

Are you an economist?

 

Then you give me a class on it....

 

God told the people of Israel that they were not to have usury for themselves.

Usury – Heb. `nashak,` meaning to oppress with interest on a loan.

Our World Economic (buying & selling / financial) system is based on usury. Fractional reserve banking has much to do with it. For example –

`If the reserve (Federal - Private bank) requirement is 10%, a bank that receives a $100 deposit may lend out $90 of that deposit. If the borrower then write a cheque to someone who deposits the $90, the bank receiving that deposit can lend out $81. As the process continues, the banking system can expand the initial deposit of $100 into a maximum, of $1,000 of money.`

When you put your money into the bank, it does not stay there. The bank only keeps a relatively small amount of money sitting around to satisfy the withdrawal demands of account holders. If all of us went down to the banks right now & demanded our money, that would create a major problem.

If I put $100 into the bank & the bank lends out $90 of those dollars to you, now it looks like there are $190 floating around. I have `$100` in my bank account & you have `$90` that you just borrowed.

The new debt that you have taken on ($90) has `created` more money. But of course you are going to end up paying more than $90 to the bank, so more debt has been created than the amount of money that has been created.

And that is one of the big problems with our financial system. It is designed so that the amount of debt & the amount of money are supposed to be perpetually expanding, & the amount of debt created is always greater than the amount of money that is created.

So is it any wonder that the USA (& the world) is swamped with trillions of dollars of debt. And we know what Proverbs says –

`The rich rules over the poor, & the borrower is servant to the lender.` (Prov. 22: 7)

This is a big subject but that gives us an idea of how more money is `created,` by debt / interest than is really there. This then in turn causes prices for goods & services etc to be increasing – thus inflation....till bubbles & crashes. Definitely an unjust system which God will judge.

 

 

 

This "spiel" IN TOTO, is the Poster Child for.... 

 

Red Herring Fallacy:  an informal fallacy, the red herring falls into a broad class of relevance fallacies. Unlike the strawman, which is premised on a distortion of the other party's position,[2] the red herring is a seemingly plausible, though ultimately irrelevant, diversionary tactic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

 

Red herring is a kind of fallacy that is an irrelevant topic introduced in an argument to divert the attention of listeners or readers from the original issue. In literature, this fallacy is often used in detective or suspense novels to mislead readers or characters or to induce them to make false conclusions. http://literarydevices.net/red-herring/

[Marilyn C]

Hi inchrist,

 

Thank you for your great contribution. They were very good thoughts from God`s word & adds to the conversation.

 

 

Hi seandavids,

 

Yes I agree with you that these 4 spirits are angels.

 

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Before I make my comments on `the 4 spirits / winds of heaven`, I would like to write further on the relationship between Religion & Economics. As I said previously I believe the Hebrew idiom of `the woman & the ephah` shows that these two are connected.

I believe that how we use our wealth is related to what we believe concerning God (or not) & His purposes. Do we believe He wants us to `save the world,` or help others yet know that He is going to judge the world`s system of government.

The Lord tells believers that they are not to partner with the world system.

`Adulterers & adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.` (James 4: 4)

Friendship – from the Greek word `philia` friendship & `philos,` friend, associate, partner.

Many `Christians` today believe that by partnering with the world system they can transform & change the world bringing peace, hope & justice, through man`s efforts. In such partnerships they are not allowed to witness of Christ or spread the gospel. Businesses are also bowing to the environmental agenda (religion of worshipping the creation & not the creator).

`they.... exchanged the truth of God for the lie, & worshipped & served the creature rather than the Creator, ....` (Rom. 1: 25)

Now we know that the leadership along side the anti-Christ is called the false prophet. He has two areas that he is responsible for – religion & economics.

`He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak & cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. And he causes all, both small & great, rich & poor, free & slave, to receive a mark on the right hand or on their foreheads, & that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.` (Rev. 13: 15 – 17)

Then looking further we see that Lucifer himself had power over these two areas.

`You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom & perfect in beauty...You were the anointed cherub who covers:....Till iniquity was found in you. By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within,....You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities; by the iniquity of your trading;....` (Ez. 28: 12, 14, 16, 18)


And James links these two areas together –

`Show me your faith without works, & I will show you my faith by my works.` (James2: 18)

I believe what we do in our daily lives is an outworking of our beliefs. How we spend our time, energy finance, goods & services, all are a proof of our `religion.` The world system has one way of operating – power, control, greed, while God has another – giving, giving, giving.

`For God so loved the world (people) that He gave....` (His son, - everything) (John 3: 16)










 

[Enoch2021]

Before I make my comments on `the 4 spirits / winds of heaven`, I would like to write further on the relationship between Religion & Economics. As I said previously I believe the Hebrew idiom of `the woman & the ephah` shows that these two are connected.

I believe that how we use our wealth is related to what we believe concerning God (or not) & His purposes. Do we believe He wants us to `save the world,` or help others yet know that He is going to judge the world`s system of government.

The Lord tells believers that they are not to partner with the world system.

`Adulterers & adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.` (James 4: 4)

Friendship – from the Greek word `philia` friendship & `philos,` friend, associate, partner.

Many `Christians` today believe that by partnering with the world system they can transform & change the world bringing peace, hope & justice, through man`s efforts. In such partnerships they are not allowed to witness of Christ or spread the gospel. Businesses are also bowing to the environmental agenda (religion of worshipping the creation & not the creator).

`they.... exchanged the truth of God for the lie, & worshipped & served the creature rather than the Creator, ....` (Rom. 1: 25)

Now we know that the leadership along side the anti-Christ is called the false prophet. He has two areas that he is responsible for – religion & economics.

`He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak & cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. And he causes all, both small & great, rich & poor, free & slave, to receive a mark on the right hand or on their foreheads, & that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.` (Rev. 13: 15 – 17)

Then looking further we see that Lucifer himself had power over these two areas.

`You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom & perfect in beauty...You were the anointed cherub who covers:....Till iniquity was found in you. By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within,....You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities; by the iniquity of your trading;....` (Ez. 28: 12, 14, 16, 18)

And James links these two areas together –

`Show me your faith without works, & I will show you my faith by my works.` (James2: 18)

I believe what we do in our daily lives is an outworking of our beliefs. How we spend our time, energy finance, goods & services, all are a proof of our `religion.` The world system has one way of operating – power, control, greed, while God has another – giving, giving, giving.

`For God so loved the world (people) that He gave....` (His son, - everything) (John 3: 16)

 

 

 

 

=================================================================================================

 

 

 

Before I make my comments on `the 4 spirits / winds of heaven`, I would like to write further on the relationship between Religion & Economics. As I said previously I believe the Hebrew idiom of `the woman & the ephah` shows that these two are connected.

 

 

They're not, as I summarily Step by Step refuted for the fifth time....it's "contrived" plain and simple.  I sure hope "the 4 spirits / winds of heaven" aren't wickered together with similar tenets you used to wicker the former...it's gonna end quick.

 

Most know the ac will be a financial genius; however, that has as much relevance to the ephah ------ that wickedness is place in the midst of, as the Hurricane Strength Level the Empire State Building can withstand to whether or not I'll dump BlueBerries on my pancakes tomorrow for breakfast. Painfully Non-Sequitur (Fallacy).  

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

Have you ever heard of the saying `Who died & made you boss?` Well, you may think you have refuted but that is only your opinion. Others think differently. So as we both well know that it is the Lord who `is boss,` then we need to humbly say our thoughts & leave the rest to Him.

 

Marilyn. 

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

Have you ever heard of the saying `Who died & made you boss?` Well, you may think you have refuted but that is only your opinion. Others think differently. So as we both well know that it is the Lord who `is boss,` then we need to humbly say our thoughts & leave the rest to Him.

 

Marilyn. 

 

 

=======================================================================================================

 

 

Have you ever heard of the saying `Who died & made you boss?`

 

 

Yes, once or twice.

 

 

Well, you may think you have refuted but that is only your opinion. Others think differently.

 

 

Well Billions of people think; whereas, very few can SUPPORT cogently and coherently what/why they think as they do.

 

 

So as we both well know that it is the Lord who `is boss,`

 

 

I was wondering where you were going with your `Who died & made you boss?` above...and alas, there it is.  Don't know if I would categorize The LORD as "boss"; personally, I refer to HIM as LORD and Savior.  But if you prefer "Boss" well, who am I to say otherwise.

 

 

then we need to humbly say our thoughts & leave the rest to Him.

 

 

I did summarily Step by Step refute your points Humbly.  Unless you Reified (Fallacy) the printed text into a some "contrived" UN-humble ensemble.  Which then falls into "The Last Port in the Storm" scenario, mainly illustrated by: Contrived Slights, Appeals to Emotion (Fallacy), Personal Attacks (various sorts), diversions, color commentaries, et al.

 

Leave the rest to him?  What rest?  I'm admonished to....

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

(2 Timothy 3:16) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"