Christian perfection

[Mr Nice]

 

So because you are unable to cease from sin with all the power that God has granted us, you think that those who claim they have are liars. That is a pretty rash statement.

 

What I am saying is that you think you live perfectly and sinlessly.  You have a pretty exalted opinion of your life and your alleged sinlessness.    It would be interesting to see how those around you view those claims.   It would be interesting to see if those whom you interact with view you through same exalted lens or if they are privy to faults and flaws and sins that you perhaps don't see in yourself. 

 

So you want to justify sin in your life by trying to disprove the claims of those who say they are no longer sinning.

 

I  don't justify sin at all.  You are justifying self-righteousness and glorifying yourself through your claim to be sinless.   And what's worse is that you claim that as the basis for your salvation.  You're saved, in your opinion because you are perfect.   And in that very claim,  you prove that you are, ironically, living in a perpetual state of sin.  The sin of self-righteousness.

 

 

If I am saying thanks be to Jesus Christ and what He has done for me through His death and promise of the Holy Spirit that I am walking according to His will, I would be exalting Christ, not my self.  I am exalting what Christ has done in me.  Big difference between who is getting exalted.

 

If I have been made righteous through His Spirit, becoming a slave to obedience, how is that self righteousness?  In making the claim that it is through Him and His Spirit, then I am making what they have done in me the basis of my salvation.  I can only be perfect if they are working in me.  A question for you.  Which takes more humility?  To confess I have sinned against God or to confess AND acknowledge that I need His promises to live according to His commandments.  The first relies solely on Christ's sacrifice, the second relies on Christ completely.  It goes from confession to complete dependence.  It takes humility to accept assistance.  That definitely is not self-righteousness.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

So because you are unable to cease from sin with all the power that God has granted us, you think that those who claim they have are liars. That is a pretty rash statement.

 

What I am saying is that you think you live perfectly and sinlessly.  You have a pretty exalted opinion of your life and your alleged sinlessness.    It would be interesting to see how those around you view those claims.   It would be interesting to see if those whom you interact with view you through same exalted lens or if they are privy to faults and flaws and sins that you perhaps don't see in yourself. 

 

So you want to justify sin in your life by trying to disprove the claims of those who say they are no longer sinning.

 

I  don't justify sin at all.  You are justifying self-righteousness and glorifying yourself through your claim to be sinless.   And what's worse is that you claim that as the basis for your salvation.  You're saved, in your opinion because you are perfect.   And in that very claim,  you prove that you are, ironically, living in a perpetual state of sin.  The sin of self-righteousness.

 

 

If I am saying thanks be to Jesus Christ and what He has done for me through His death and promise of the Holy Spirit that I am walking according to His will, I would be exalting Christ, not my self.  I am exalting what Christ has done in me.  Big difference between who is getting exalted.

 

If I have been made righteous through His Spirit, becoming a slave to obedience, how is that self righteousness?  In making the claim that it is through Him and His Spirit, then I am making what they have done in me the basis of my salvation.  I can only be perfect if they are working in me.  A question for you.  Which takes more humility?  To confess I have sinned against God or to confess AND acknowledge that I need His promises to live according to His commandments.  The first relies solely on Christ's sacrifice, the second relies on Christ completely.  It goes from confession to complete dependence.  It takes humility to accept assistance.  That definitely is not self-righteousness.

 

The problem is that you also teach that you must never sin after you are saved in order to remain saved.   You have claimed that salvation is conditional upon not committing a single sin.   For that reason, you are teaching a works-based, and not a Christ-based system of salvation that places the credit  and glory for salvation on you and not on God.  It is why I reject and abominate your teachings.

[OneLight]

I tried to paste what I found on carm.org about this subject, but their format did not hold, so here is a link you can read.
 

Can a true Christian sin or not?

 

What needs to be understood is that we should always follow the lead of the Holy Spirit and obey Christ, but we are not perfect.  We will fail to some degree now and then, showing us we are not perfect.  To say we are prefect because of Christ is false humility.  We are forgiven, not perfect.

[Mr Nice]

 

 

 

But don't fall into the self-righteous trap of thinking you are perfectly sinless.  The ONLY person who can lay claim to that is Jesus.

^  how is that self righteous to believe god took away your sin?

There is a difference between believing that Jesus bore the penalty of our sin on the cross and believing that we are perfectly sinless.   Jesus is the only Person whoever had the ability to fully please God with works of righteousness.

 

Jesus did not take away your sin nature.   Jesus satisfied God's justice against sin.   Jesus made it possible for us sinners to be in right standing with God.    We are perfected objectively through the blood of Jesus (Heb. 10).  We stand before perfected through the work of Christ on the cross.   But we still have a struggle against our sin nature, what Paul calls "the flesh."  

 

God has only one standard perfection:  Himself.   He is the standard of perfection.  For me to claim that I am perfectly sinless means I have to meet that divine standard and that means I have to measure myself against the Lord.  None of us reach the place where we are perfectly flawless/sinless because that would put us on God's level and that takes us into heresy.

 

Jesus never takes away our flesh, that's true.  But I can't agree with the rest since I believe being sinless is mandatory for a Christian

 

From an objective standpoint, we are sinless in that the part of us that is born of God, the part of us that goes to heaven when we die, doesn't sin. 

 

There is no commandment in the Bible that makes being a Christian conditional on living a perfect, sinless life.  Our perfection is in founded in Christ, not in our own efforts.   You can't live up to God's standard of perfection.   God makes you sinless; you don't make yourself sinless through the strength of your will or your works.

 

If you think you are capable of being perfect to the same degree that God is perfect (which is the only standard of perfect the Bible states that God accepts) you are sorely mistaken. 

 

If sin remains in you then you are still a slave to sin which leads to death.  This is according to Christ.  Joh 8:12  Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."   

 

Do you believe God? Is your faith in Him and what you can do with your faith? If you do why are you not stopping all the flaming arrows of Satan?  Why aren't you resisting the devil so that he flees from you?  You claim you believe  the Bible but your actions say other ways sins you are still sinning.  We are told we will not see the Lord without sanctification which comes by being lead by His Spirit.  Sanctification is separation from sin entirely, not partially.  God says we can live up to His standard if we believe in Him.  Why do you want to claim otherwise?  He says if we are lead by His Spirit we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.  On the contrary we will produce the fruit of the Spirit which is God's standard.  That standard is love.  We are told to love one another as Christ loved the church, but you claim we cannot.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

But don't fall into the self-righteous trap of thinking you are perfectly sinless.  The ONLY person who can lay claim to that is Jesus.

^  how is that self righteous to believe god took away your sin?

There is a difference between believing that Jesus bore the penalty of our sin on the cross and believing that we are perfectly sinless.   Jesus is the only Person whoever had the ability to fully please God with works of righteousness.

 

Jesus did not take away your sin nature.   Jesus satisfied God's justice against sin.   Jesus made it possible for us sinners to be in right standing with God.    We are perfected objectively through the blood of Jesus (Heb. 10).  We stand before perfected through the work of Christ on the cross.   But we still have a struggle against our sin nature, what Paul calls "the flesh."  

 

God has only one standard perfection:  Himself.   He is the standard of perfection.  For me to claim that I am perfectly sinless means I have to meet that divine standard and that means I have to measure myself against the Lord.  None of us reach the place where we are perfectly flawless/sinless because that would put us on God's level and that takes us into heresy.

 

Jesus never takes away our flesh, that's true.  But I can't agree with the rest since I believe being sinless is mandatory for a Christian

 

From an objective standpoint, we are sinless in that the part of us that is born of God, the part of us that goes to heaven when we die, doesn't sin. 

 

There is no commandment in the Bible that makes being a Christian conditional on living a perfect, sinless life.  Our perfection is in founded in Christ, not in our own efforts.   You can't live up to God's standard of perfection.   God makes you sinless; you don't make yourself sinless through the strength of your will or your works.

 

If you think you are capable of being perfect to the same degree that God is perfect (which is the only standard of perfect the Bible states that God accepts) you are sorely mistaken. 

 

If sin remains in you then you are still a slave to sin which leads to death.  This is according to Christ.  Joh 8:12  Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."   

 

Just because someone fails on occasion, or stumbles and commits a sin doesn't mean they are slave to sin.  It doesn't mean that they are no longer saved.

[enoob57]

Having His Spirit sent to us doesn't mean we have been sealed, being lead by the Spirit is what guarantees our salvation to come.

2 Cor 1:20-22

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

KJV

There are no works listed here but God's and sealing is accomplished by that which is already

placed upon...

NT:4972

sphragizo (sfrag-id'-zo); from NT:4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security

or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret, to attest:

[Guest shiloh357]

Having His Spirit sent to us doesn't mean we have been sealed, being lead by the Spirit is what guarantees our salvation to come. Otherwise, one would say since I have been sealed by believing, then there is nothing I need to do.  I don't even have to obey.

 

 

More false teaching from you, Mr. Nice.  

 

Here is the truth:

 

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

(Eph 1:13-14)

 

He is the seal and the guarantee and that is based on faith not on works.   It is the fact that we are sealed and our inheritance is guaranteed that motivates our obedience from  a heart of gratitude and not the obligation of slave.  We work and serve from a posture of thankfulness.  So your argument that having a guarantee means that we won't obey is false.

[OneLight]

 

 

Honestly I cannot claim to be without sin.  Do I think I am saved? No. Am I fine with that? No.

Than you do not believe in what we are told in Ephesians 1:13-14?

 

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

We can, and should, trust scripture. If you have sought salvation through Christ, you can know you are saved as you continue in Him.

 

  The question always goes back to what you have believed.  Believing you have been sealed while still living in sin (committing sin) doesn't mean you have been sealed.  At the same time, what is it that the Holy Spirit was sent to do.  He was sent to sanctify us without which we will not see the Lord.  Having His Spirit sent to us doesn't mean we have been sealed, being lead by the Spirit is what guarantees our salvation to come.  Otherwise, one would say since I have been sealed by believing, then there is nothing I need to do.  I don't even have to obey.  This is "once saved always saved" theology.  Here is where the problem lies with what you believe.  Unless I am mistaken you do not believe in once saved always saved.  If this is the case then you must believe we have to obey.  How much do we have to obey?  Is it dedication of 80% of my life to Christ?  90, 95, 99, or 100%?  The answer is 100%.  If 100% of my life is dedicated to Christ then there can be no darkness in me. 

 

1Pe 4:19  Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

 

 

I do not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved.  I do believe in Eternal Security, which is not the same.  Upon being saved, God did not remove our free will.  He has built a relationship in us with Christ, and sealed it with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13-14

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Realize that Paul's words are so true, that even though our spirit seeks God continuously, our flesh does not and they are at constant battle. All of scripture tells us what we should do, yet there is absolutely not guarantee that we will do them all the time. Even God knows we are not perfect. Study scripture for what it says, not through the lens of mens doctrine.

Galatians 5:16-26

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

In this thread alone, according to scripture, you are following your own flesh when you stand in contention with others, as we all are. You see, you, nor any of us, are perfect. All we can do is seek to be like Christ, realizing that this is a goal we strive for, not something we have become.

As for your percentages of where you are in Him, only you and God knows that, so I will not answer for you. I can only speak for myself. I will admit that I am not 100% in Him, for I still live in this world, forced to continue to live in this tent we call flesh, that has its own desires. My spirit is in a constant battle with the flesh, as we are told we will be in scripture.

Gods word is not a book where one can ignore the undesirable or disagreeing parts, only to accept the blessings. God did not give us instructions because we are perfect, He gave them because He knows we are not, even after salvation.

 

[almightyist]

I copied and pasted all these things said about Mr Nice By shiloh357.

The problem in this train wreck of theology is that it fails to take into account that the Bible deals with spiritual truths from an objective standpoint and a subjective standpoint.

Your view is based on a warped and unbiblical and almost cultish view that makes all of salvation hinge on being spotless and perfect in all of our words and deeds and in doing so, diminishes the perfecting work of Christ on the cross.

it really throws your wacky theology into a tailspin,

Your view of God isn't the God the Bible presents.

Your theology is warped and demonic, and full of condemnation and absent completely of grace, mercy, longsuffering, forbearance, forgiveness. It is false teaching and a doctrine of demons.

One way I can always spot false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing, is the way they misquote and misrepresent the Scriptures to say something that isn't there.

There is so much deception in what you teach it is unbelievable.

You don't believe the Gospel.

Now Mr. Nice shared how he comes to understand the gospel by how the Holy Spirit has worked in his life.

And this isn't the first time I've seen Shiloh357 make these horrendous accusations on anybody that don't follow the gospel the way he does.

On this site it seems that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be done....by a Christian.

I believe this is the perfect example of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. If Mr. Nice has the Holy Spirit and is sharing from his heart. And listening to what Mr. Nice said in his post it sounds like the Holy Spirit is working thru him.

That means that Shiloh357 is calling the Holy Spirit warped and demonic and all those other nasty things he said about Mr. Nice.

Matthew 12:31-32 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

The only hope for Shiloh357 would be that Mr. Nice doesn't have the Holy Spirit.

Edited January 7, 2015 by almightyist

[Guest shiloh357]

I copied and pasted all these things said about Joshua777 By shiloh357.

The problem in this train wreck of theology is that it fails to take into account that the Bible deals with spiritual truths from an objective standpoint and a subjective standpoint.

Your view is based on a warped and unbiblical and almost cultish view that makes all of salvation hinge on being spotless and perfect in all of our words and deeds and in doing so, diminishes the perfecting work of Christ on the cross.

it really throws your wacky theology into a tailspin,

Your view of God isn't the God the Bible presents.

Your theology is warped and demonic, and full of condemnation and absent completely of grace, mercy, longsuffering, forbearance, forgiveness. It is false teaching and a doctrine of demons.

One way I can always spot false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing, is the way they misquote and misrepresent the Scriptures to say something that isn't there.

There is so much deception in what you teach it is unbelievable.

You don't believe the Gospel.

Now Joshua shared how he comes to understand the gospel by how the Holy Spirit has worked in his life.

And this isn't the first time I've seen Shiloh357 make these horrendous accusations on anybody that don't follow the gospel the way he does.

On this site it seems that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be done....by a Christian.

I believe this is the perfect example of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. If Joshua has the Holy Spirit and is sharing from his heart. And listening to what Joshua said in his post it sounds like the Holy Spirit is working thru him.

That means that Shiloh357 is calling the Holy Spirit warped and demonic and all those other nasty things he said about Joshua.

Matthew 12:31-32 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

The only hope for Shiloh357 would be that Joshua doesn't have the Holy Spirit.

Actually those things were said to Mr. Nice, not to Joshua.  

 

I am not calling the Holy Spirit warped and demonic. I am calling a works-based system of righteousness warped, and demonic.  It is false teaching.  You don't know anything about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. 

 

Your theology like Mir. Nice's is just as warped and just as fleshly and demonic.    You operate from a system that operates from the flesh and not the Holy Spirit.   The Holy Spirit is not in anything you say when you delcare that works are necessary for salvation.   I abominate your false teaching.   I stand by everything I have said about how sinful your "theology" is.