How does Christ's death atone?

[Kan]

Yes, absolutely, it is as being born again, a new life.

 

Now that we have established that Life can only come from God through Christ, both the first life which was forfeited by Adam, and the new life which was given him the moment he sinned, we need to look at how sin causes a loss and how that is dealt with.

 

It is very clear that the world is living on borrowed life, the actual power of life through Christ, so that not a single person, nor an angel, both fallen and unfallen, lives without the life from God.

 

But life has always been conditional, it must be in God's favor, it must be very good as it says in Genesis. No suffering whatsoever is allowed in God's perfect universe. Yet now we have life, which has been given to us for free. The cost is the Life and Sacrifice of God's own Son. A very expensive gift, infinitely expensive, all that God can give.

 

Now the Q is why does it take such an expensive gift? And how is sin transferred onto Christ right from the time Adam sinned until Christ removes the sin of the world from Himself or wherever it is stored and destroys it? Is sin a real physical phenomenon or is it just a bad idea?

 

I want to discuss the reality of sin versus the Life of Christ.

[Kan]

We are sure that we live by the life of God, life is a precious and very expensive gift.

 

But life is not "very" good on earth, it has a lot of misery. There is far more good than evil, but a little evil spoils everything.

There is so much to be grateful for.

 

The universe was designed to be highly connected and cross influential, everything matters, because every thing affects anything else.

And God is fully aware as well as fully interactive with the universe. In fact the universe works or is stimulated by His presence.

It was made to give God joy. Revelation 4:11."...Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

No one needs to wonder why they are alive. We make God happy by just existing. That's a really good start.

 

So then if sin enters, an action, it will have a reaction, and an effect on everything at some point in time and space.

The idea of "It does not matter that I do this or that, so long as I am not hurting anyone else" is not true about any sin.

It eventually decays other things with it. That is the nature of the universe.

 

Whatever affects the universe affects God, immediately. When we injure a toe, does our whole being react to it or do we find out weeks later? The reaction of God to decay in His universe is immediate.

If the dysfunction and decay is caused by a creature that can love Him, He does not vaporize the creature.

So then He carries the problem, He becomes the sin bearer. Which is worse than death. Have you ever had someone you love suffer? It is easier to do it yourself rather than know they are suffering.

 

So sin has an immediate consequence of pain to God, pain for the sinner and with the sinner. He would rather die than have His creatures suffer.

Now if God accepts the sinner, He must also bear the sins for as long as the sinner needs life. Even if they only sinned once, because the effects of that sin carry on. And if God removes the effects of sin from the sinner and his world, then He must bear the consequences of that effect, upholding a universe which has cross purposes in it, which has unnatural functions, and eminent death on some level.

 

Why death and not just a compensation plan?

Because sin is anti love, and God is love. To accept any form of anti love is to say to Him - "we have reason not to trust you." Love is denied as being perfect, honest, reliable, pure and innocent and everlasting.

Sin causes a denial of who He is.

If God is life, then a denial of Him is death. To be connected to God in heart is to be connected to the physical and spiritual source of life.

 

So sin is death to God, because it is anti love, anti life and anti God. 

To bear the sins of the world is to be rejected as God. So God who is love suffers, not being able to connect with His creatures.

 

This is what the atonement is, God suffering in our stead until the problem of sin is removed from us.

 

So the atonement is never just a declaration or forgiveness, but a physical and spiritual substitute for the sinner.

 

That's a start.

[Kan]

How is sin removed in this atonement?

 

We have briefly touched on how we have received life by Christ,

is sin a thing that can be transferred or what?

 

Sin is just a thought or an action isn't it?

 

How can a thought or an action be taken away - as John the baptist said "behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world." ?

[Kan]

I'll try to answer the Q seeing that there is not much response at the moment.

 

Sin is never just a thought or an action without consequence. Consequences are a real part of the universe. God has made it that way for a reason, so that whatever is done is effective.

 

Imagine a world where the animals plants and human beings cannot have much impact, they fail of succeeding and having power in their realm because of limitations on all consequences.

 

So for any being or creature to have freedom, power and choice, it must be able to have real consequences to whatever it does.

 

God has made the universe on this principle, so that everything is effectual, it influences things around it.

This has another effect on the creature, that it too will be influenced by whatever is around it. The world is real to it.

This makes an interactive universe, all things relate and all things are effected and effectual.

 

The bottom line is that the biggest component in the universe is relationship, and ultimately the universe was designed for a relationship with God. God loves to care for it, and it responds to God on all levels from molecules to man.

 

Man was to be the pinnacle of that response from nature, and man was meant to stand as the representative of the entire world under his dominion.

 

Man was designed to have full impact on the the entire world, creatures would love his presence and respond to him.

When sin entered, his impact began to sour the landscape - a real consequence of having power and influence, and in turn God would have the elements of death coming from man and his world.

 

The effect of the universe on God is real. God is not a detached Person, but One that relates fully and honestly.

When a relationship suffers, the suffering is real.

 

The Bible says a broken bone a person can take but not a broken spirit.

 

The effects that sin would bring on man, hurt God as well.

 

So in order to remove sin from man, God has to take away the consequences of it which is death. If He does not let sin have its consequences He has created a universe which is not real but manipulated, and not based on the principle of love or a true relationship.

It would be a demonstration of a lie and not truth. Therefor God will and must let the consequences of sin fall on the perpetrator, to be true to Himself and to the principles of truth and genuine love.

 

As the giver of life, all life originates from Him and all the consequences of that given life return to Him.

A pure creation will return perfection and purity, but sin returns pain. God hates it with a vengeance, by choice and natural consequence of who He is.

 

He cannot maintain sinful man alive, unless the consequence is taken care of. So He becomes man, he rolls all human lives into one body and becomes that body. Hebrews 10:5.

There are no time and event barriers for God, so it does not matter when we live, it can always be the now for God, and so the substitution for man began the day Adam fell.

God took the consequences of sin onto Himself that day, on the basis that He would pay for it later. It does not matter when He does that, as far as we are concerned, because with God it is not a case of when but if, and it is done now as far as God is concerned.

 

But the sacrifice, did not just bring salvation, it bought a guarantee that sin and sinners unrepentant would be destroyed. God would not accept the consequences of sin if it was permanent, so He will not always bear sin, but put the consequences on the objects that caused it. He would only accept the consequences of sin on the basis that He can destroy it.

 

And He does that because in the end He will destroy the author of sin and all those who cling to it, and thus God and the universe remain true to love, that it cannot abide sin or its consequences.

 

 

So in summary, God is the author of life which is fully interactive, sin causes real consequences in that universe, and those consequences are taken away from humanity, and returned to humanity. 

But in the cross, we have humanity united in Jesus, receiving the consequences of sin which is death, for all that have sinned, but His resurrection is victory over the grave for everyone that accepts His death for them.

 

The Atonement is both destruction and life, the consequences of our sins, and the consequences of Christ's perfect obedience in our stead.

 

The substitution of Christ does not stop with removing our sins, it continues by giving us victory over sin.

[Kan]

Because Christ is the life of the universe, if He dies, so does the universe. But He only died for sinners and nothing else, and so only sinners died in that sacrifice and will die by that sacrifice if they don't receive His life of obedience for them.

He lived a perfect life of obedience in our flesh, which lives by Him, He has bought our salvation on the basis of His obedience in us. He became us, lived for us and gives us the benefits of His obedience which is eternal life.

The life we have now is Christ's life, because when He died, it was us in Him that died. When He rose from the dead, it was on the basis of His perfect life for us, so that we are raised with Him and by His life we are accounted as fit for heaven.

 

At the end of this world Christ returns the life He bought for all, and they come to life like He did.

 

Christ the Container of life, became sin for us, and destroys it by His own right, and gives a new life by His eternal power as God. 

[Pamelasv]

Was thinking about Isaiah 55: 8-9

 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."

 

So in other words, we will never figure it out unless the Lord reveals the understanding.   

Edited January 30, 2015 by Pamelasv

[Kan]

Was thinking about Isaiah 55: 8-9

 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."

 

So in other words, we will never figure it out unless the Lord reveals the understanding.   

 

Absolutely, the Atonement or sacrifice of God, is the greatest mystery, and all mysteries can be unlocked by relating to this one key. However knowledge and mysteries in the universe are infinite, they can never be fathomed and yet they can always be studied and learned about, through adventure and discovery.

It reveals the innermost heart of God, which He shares freely,- infinite love.

[alisonm328]

I can explain why his death was more than enough to pay for the sins of mankind. But I have to start at the beginning...

Since God is perfect, he is truly unable to be of anything bad or sinful. Try to imagine how perfect he is. He CANNOT lie, cheat, break promises, steal, etc. He is not even capable of anything but LOVE. LOVE that we cant even fathom because the love of this world that we know is actually so very broken and weak when compared to who he is, which is love. God needing an animal sacrifice for sins wasnt for nothing.. it's because since he is so Holy, to make us a part of his family and able to actually be with us and a part of us with all our un-holiness we had to somehow pay for our sins and spilling INNOCENT blood did that.

Our life force and all source of life comes from our blood. Also true for animals, reptiles and such. Blood is life. The original Adam and Eve were created pure and good, not unlike the blood of a lamb or goat. Animals have innocent blood because they have no knowledge of evil. The sin of Adam and Eve brought the knowledge of evil (corruption to love) to mankind, a CURSE. He wanted us to be pure and innocent originally but because of the curse, all of mankind no longer has innocent blood. Not even little babies! Because we all come from the same corrupted seed (the same blood) of Adam and Eve.

The reason Jesus paid for ALL sins of the whole world is because he has PURE and INNOCENT blood. He did not come from our corrupted and cursed seed, he came from God! Although an animal with innocent blood could pay for 1 man's sins, Jesus' blood paid for every man's sins because his blood is pure even with the knowledge of evil. So even though he knew of evil, he still stayed pure and without sin. How easy is it for an animal to remain innocent without the knowledge of evil? Well Jesus, because of his love for the father and for us, stayed pure and without sin, even while knowing all evil, he still chose to love and love and love. That's why his blood was able to pay the price that God HAD to have in order to reconcile us to himself.

I really tried to break it down really really down so anyone could make sense of it... hopefully it's understandable!

[Kan]

I am not sure what you are saying, because I have always thought that it was the blood of the guilty which must be shed, and not the blood of the innocent.

The law of God cannot condone the shedding of innocent blood.

[Guest]

I am not sure what you are saying, because I have always thought that it was the blood of the guilty....

 

which must be shed, and not the blood of the innocent....

 

The law of God cannot condone the shedding....

 

of innocent blood....

 

 

Beloved, Good

 

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood,

 

and without the shedding of blood

 

there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22 (NIV)

 

Point

 

he entered once for all into the holy places,

 

not by means of the blood of goats and calves

 

but by means of his own blood,

 

thus securing an eternal

 

redemption. Hebrews 9:12 (NIV)

 

~

 

Jesus

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 (KJV)

 

Is Awesome

 

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,

 

but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 1 Peter 1:18-19

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe