Breaking bottles

[Guest shiloh357]

 

In Matthew 9 Jesus tells a parable about pouring new wine into old bottles.  Because the "bottles" are old and hard they leave no room for expansion when the new wine is poured in. As a result they crack and break.  However, new bottles are soft and flexible so they do have room to expand with the new wine.  As a result they do not crack and break.

 

I believe this parable is making reference to how we respond to Jesus' teachings.  A good deal of what Jesus taught is radical, even confrontational.  Jesus was all about change.  He talked about being born again, becoming like little children with a fresh new sense of wonder for the values of the kingdom of Heaven.  Much of what he said challenges our old ways of thinking.  He challenged our pride, greed, materialism, laziness, and respectability.

 

Some people had/have problems with these teachings and I believe this is what happened with the pharisees. They just would not change with the times.  They were stuck in their old, hardened ways of thinking and as a result their "cracking" took the form of deep hatred and anger for the source of those teachings.

 

With hindsight we can see pretty clearly just how wrong the pharisees were, but what about when it comes to ourselves? Is that kind of thing still happening today?  Do we still find old inflexible bottles cracking when it comes to pouring in the new teachings of Jesus and his new Kingdom?  I think so but maybe it would be helpful to discuss some practical examples to get a better idea of how it works.

 

I'll get it started with an example from Matthew 6, where Jesus tells us to keep our fasting secret.  Not only should we keep it secret  but we should take steps to make sure no one knows.  Wash our face, comb our hair, present a happy and healthy appearance despite feeling hungry and tired.

 

And yet, I've talked to many Christians who commonly talk about their fasting as though it's the most natural thing to do so.  Often when I mention Jesus' teachings, they will present various reasons for why their situation is an exception to the teaching about keeping our fasting secret. It usually only takes just a little pushing to expose a rising anger at being challenged on their public fasting.

 

What do others think?

 

The actual meaning wasn't about bottles, but wineskins, for that is what they used at the time. An old skin would break if you put newly fermenting wine in it that needed to expand. A new skin wouldn't break.

 

The comparison is like what He asked His disciples in Mark 8, asking them how many 'fragments' in baskets they gathered up after His feeding the five thousand and seven thousand.

 

The loaves that went out to the multitudes went out 'whole', but they came back as baskets of fragments that was a much larger amount than what went out. Jesus compared those 'fragments' that came back as 'leaven' doctrines of men that had been added.

 

That's what the 'old bottles' (or old skins) represent too. The 'new wine' is like the whole loaves that went out. With those stuck on 'old bottle' traditions of men, they are not able to expand to include the full wine of His Word. It's also comparable to what Hebrews 5 said about those who were in need of being taught the first principles of Christ when they should have progressed to the "strong meat" of God's Word becoming teachers. Instead, they were still on the 'milk' of God's Word.

 

God's Holy Writ declares deep things which many people even on this forum would have a hard time understanding or believing, simply because they are used to the 'old bottle' traditions instead. People like safety and permanence, they don't like change. So anything that seems to upset their security blanket, they tend to get bent out of shape about. Yet God expects us to accept what He says, and that is how things will happen, regardless of what men think, and regardless whether or not men understand it how it could be possible.

 

Actually, its not that we are rejecting deeper truths.  We just know how to spot false teachings and false teachers and we test things by the Word of God.    False teachers don't like to be questioned or challenged.   They want their views to be accepted without question.   That's how cults get started.

[Riverwalker]

I am of the mind that there is a dual purpose here

 

First as others have said, that we have been made new creations and the wine being talked about is the holy spirit

 

We cannot take the Holy Spirit into our old sinful hearts, it will not work

 

But as 2 Cor 5:17  we are made new creations, new vessels   and made of God so that we are fit vessels for the Holy Spirit

 

An additional meaning speaks to your point....that God is opening a new way, Christianity, and it cannot be made to fit in the old way, Judaism.

 

 

Just a contextual note, the original text had the containers as wine skins, Theused skins and innards of animals to hold the wine, which soon became old and brittle, so new wine , new skins

[gray_robe]

God's Holy Writ declares deep things which many people even on this forum would have a hard time understanding or believing, simply because they are used to the 'old bottle' traditions instead. People like safety and permanence, they don't like change. So anything that seems to upset their security blanket, they tend to get bent out of shape about. Yet God expects us to accept what He says, and that is how things will happen, regardless of what men think, and regardless whether or not men understand it how it could be possible.

 

 

Hi Salty.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  I really enjoyed reading this paragraph from you, especially the part about an unwillingness to change, as that's the lesson which most resonates with me about the parable.  I think there can be different reasons for why people don't change.  Maybe ignorance, or bitterness, or fear or just plain stubbornness, or perhaps a combination of these.

 

I know there are times when I can feel myself resisting some particular discipline mentioned in the gospels.  I'm lazy in some areas and I end up cheating a bit here or there to make up for it, rather than being faithful in the little things, and I wonder if all these "little areas" where I resist change start to add up and without realizing it I've become a hardened wineskin.   I know no one is perfect, but I think what God is really looking for is a sincere desire to change, even if we make mistakes along the way.

 

I think Paul described something similar to the breaking wine skins metaphor when he talked about searing the conscience with a hot iron.  When we argue away the teachings of Jesus and/or refuse to change we start to crack or burn a little piece of our conscience.  It's a bit of a scary thought that we could someday get to the point that we don't even realize we can't hear from God anymore.

[gray_robe]

I dunno.  Our church is small enough that we don't really have a problem with that

 

That's good to hear, Shiloh.  I'm happy to hear that.

 

 

 

It wasn't about keeping it a secret.  It was about not letting it become an issue of pride.  Jesus' point was not that fasting or giving are top secret activities.  All Jesus is saying is don't go around talking about it so as to garner praise and adoration from people.

 

  But, if you walk into church and make a public display of it, that's different.   That's true with anything not just fasting or giving.  

 

Jesus said we should take steps to give the appearance that we are not fasting, for the express purpose that people will not know.  It may not be "top" secret, but the context clearly indicates he meant for us to keep it secret.  But I can accept that we see different things when we each read the same teachings from Jesus.

 

 

Most people don't care if you fast or not, in our culture.

 

IIf people didn't care, I don't think Jesus would have felt it necessary to make a point of this issue.  Maybe you've not experienced the same things I have, but I've been in many circumstances where Christians casually (or officially) talk about their fasting, as though they'd either never heard, or just never seriously considered Jesus' instructions to keep it secret.

 

 

If someone wants to take you to dinner and you decline and he or she ask why, and you explain that you are fasting for some reason, most people simply respect it and move on.  Jesus was not saying that you just lost your reward from God in that situation.

 

Why should you explain that you are fasting?  Can't you just say something like "I'm not hungry" or "I need to deal with some other issues at the moment" or "I'm feeling tired so I'm just going to rest, but what about next time"?  But like I said earlier, it's a matter of perspective.  Some people see Jesus comment's about annointing one's head with oil so as not to give the appearance of fasting and see a lesson there, that we should not only just not talk about our fasting, but take steps to keep it secret even when around other people.

 

Other people see Jesus' teachings and take a much less...ummm...serious approach, where talking about one's fasting isn't a problem so long as the  opportunity presents itself as a circumstance where someone feels there is a good reason to talk about their fasting rather than brining it up on their own without any convenient excuse to do so.  In other words, I see this kind of discussion of private fasting as a kind of self deception where the person thinks, "well, it's not like I'm the one bringing it up so I'm not guilty of tooting my own spiritual horn by mentioning my fasting".

Edited January 13, 2015 by gray_robe

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus said we should take steps to give the appearance that we are not fasting, for the express purpose that people will not know.  It may not be "top" secret, but the context clearly indicates he meant for us to keep it secret.  But I can accept that we see different things when we each read the same teachings from Jesus.

 

It's not necessarily saying that it has to be kept a secret or else you will lose your reward, though.   The loss of reward stems from making an ostentatious display in order to receive accolades.  If that's the motive, then you have your reward.  Rather, we dress and carry ourselves so that it is not apparent that we are fasting, so that we are not seeking attention and we keep it to ourselves and if we are placed in a position that we have to decline an offer of dinner or something and we have no choice but to be honest about why we are declining, the Lord is wise enough to take that into account.   It is the attempt at garnering undue attention that Jesus is addressing.

 

IIf people didn't care, I don't think Jesus would have felt it necessary to make a point of this issue. 

 

The problem is that you are not taking into account the fact that the sermon on the mount in which this commandment appears is a commentary on what it means for one's righteousness to exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees.   Jesus is explaining to us what the looks like.   Jesus addressed this point in order to counter the behavior of the Pharisees who like to appear holy and pious and were constantly drawing attention to themselves and their self-righteousness with their long prayers and extreme fasting practices and the way always tried to wear their piety on their sleeves.   That is the occasion for why Jesus is talking about this.

 

Maybe you've not experienced the same things I have, but I've been in many circumstances where Christians casually (or officially) talk about their fasting, as though they'd either never heard, or just never seriously considered Jesus' instructions to keep it secret.

 

 

I see no problem if someone mentions the fact that they were fasting.  There were all kinds of fasts that took place in Israel, both biblical and extra-biblical and most of the time, most people observed them and knew that each other was observing them.   The point is not that no one can know if you happen to be fasting, the point, which you seem intent on missing, is that Jesus is speaking to the obnoxious public spectacle that the religious leaders engaged in so that everyone would know and everyone would praise them for their piety.   It is very clear from the context that the point here is not to put it on display.  Keep it to yourself, don't drop it in a conversation because you want a compliment, or to look spiritual.  

 

Some churches engage in corporate fasting, not to put on appearances but because they really want something for the Lord.  The fast of Yom Kippur was a public fast and everyone was expected to observe it.  It makes no sense for the Lord to condemn public fasting when one of His own festivals, which He created and ordained is in fact a public fast.    But even that type of fast, you need to know why you are doing it and the proper humble behavior that should accompany it.

 

Why should you explain that you are fasting?  Can't you just say something like "I'm not hungry" or "I need to deal with some other issues at the moment" or "I'm feeling tired so I'm just going to rest, but what about next time"?

 

Most of the time, that would probably work depending on the question and how its asked.  I am just saying that in the event that you have to be honest about what you're doing, particularly if it is a fast over multiple days and people take notice that you're not eating and they get a little nosy, I see nothing wrong with politely explaining what you're doing and that you will be glad to join them when it's over.

 

Fasting can draw attention in close working quarters in some offices and stuff particularly when everyone is used to having frequent pot lucks and people bring in donuts and stuff which is often a part of the office culture. 

 

The Lord is pretty smart and he can tell the difference between the need to let someone know so that they don't keep bringing food around or tempting you to break your fast and a silly attempt at trying to garner attention.   He knows the difference and you really need to be a little more honest about the text and what Jesus actually has in mind.

 

Some people see Jesus comment's about annointing one's head with oil so as not to give the appearance of fasting and see a lesson there, that we should not only just not talk about our fasting, but take steps to keep it secret even when around other people.

 

I agree. If we fast, just fast.  Don't talk about it, don't bring it up just fast and seek to mind your own business. Don't draw undue attention to yourself.  Get up shower and dress up and look your best and go about your day.  Chances are no one will notice or care that you're not eating.

 

Other people see Jesus' teachings and take a much less...ummm...serious approach, where talking about one's fasting isn't a problem so long as the  opportunity presents itself as a circumstance where someone feels there is a good reason to talk about their fasting rather than brining it up on their own without any convenient excuse to do so.  In other words, I see this kind of discussion of private fasting as a kind of self deception where the person thinks, "well, it's not like I'm the one bringing it up so I'm not guilty of tooting my own spiritual horn by mentioning my fasting".

 

It all goes to motive.   It all goes to why you mention it.   You are taking a hyper-literal approach to this without really taking the time to understand the behavior he is addressing and why He says what He says.  It's not an attempt to toot their own horn.  You are assigning motives to people and running with the assumption that just because they happen to mention that they are fasting that they are somehow trying to garner praise for themselves and that is simply unfair and it is based on a wrong interpretation of what Jesus was endeavoring to say.

[gray_robe]

 

The Lord is pretty smart and he can tell the difference between the need to let someone know so that they don't keep bringing food around or tempting you to break your fast and a silly attempt at trying to garner attention.   He knows the difference and you really need to be a little more honest about the text and what Jesus actually has in mind.

 

Ok, lets pretend that you shared a bit of sensative personal information with someone, and they agree to respect your privacy. However, you later find out that person did NOT respect your privacy and ended up telling someone else about your personal information.

 

When you confront them about it, the person says, "why are you upset?  It's not like I set out to tell anyone about your personal issues, but then someone asked me about what's happening with you.  I couldn't just ignore them, could I?  I had to tell them what was happening with you because they asked."

 

Just about anyone would be smart enough to see the problem, there, and yet when applying this same lesson to the issue of secret fasting, you suddenly can't see the problem anymore.  You just see it as normal to tell a secret simply because someone asks you , "do you want a sandwich"?  You could just say no thanks.  Even if the person asks you 100 times if you want a sandwich, you have the freedom to say 100 times, "no thanks" without getting into the reasons why.  After all, when you are doing a secret fast for God, you don't owe that explanation to anyone.  If they can't be satisfied with, "I'm not hungry right now" or whatever excuse you feel comfortable with, then that's their problem, isn't it?  It's not like you are denying them necessary information which they just can't live without.

 

After all, if all it takes for someone to crack our faith is a bit of badgering about why we're not eating, then how can we ever expect to lay our life down?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

The Lord is pretty smart and he can tell the difference between the need to let someone know so that they don't keep bringing food around or tempting you to break your fast and a silly attempt at trying to garner attention.   He knows the difference and you really need to be a little more honest about the text and what Jesus actually has in mind.

 

Ok, lets pretend that you shared a bit of sensative personal information with someone, and they agree to respect your privacy. However, you later find out that person did NOT respect your privacy and ended up telling someone else about your personal information.

 

When you confront them about it, the person says, "why are you upset?  It's not like I set out to tell anyone about your personal issues, but then someone asked me about what's happening with you.  I couldn't just ignore them, could I?  I had to tell them what was happening with you because they asked."

 

But that's not the same thing.  And you completely missed the point I was making...   If I am fasting, it's not sensitive private information like you are characterizing it.  i simply admit that I am fasting and it's no big deal and I just expect them respect that.  The point point I was making was that the Lord knows the difference between that and me going out and trumpeting to everyone that I am engaging in a season of prayer and fasting.   There is a marked difference between those two and I am not sure you are wanting to be honest about the difference.

 

Just about anyone would be smart enough to see the problem, there, and yet when applying this same lesson to the issue of secret fasting, you suddenly can't see the problem anymore.  You just see it as normal to tell a secret simply because someone asks you , "do you want a sandwich"?  You could just say no thanks.  Even if the person asks you 100 times if you want a sandwich, you have the freedom to say 100 times, "no thanks" without getting into the reasons why.  After all, when you are doing a secret fast for God, you don't owe that explanation to anyone.  If they can't be satisfied with, "I'm not hungry right now" or whatever excuse you feel comfortable with, then that's their problem, isn't it?  It's not like you are denying them necessary information which they just can't live without.

 

After all, if all it takes for someone to crack our faith is a bit of badgering about why we're not eating, then how can we ever expect to lay our life down?

 

The problem is that you are manufacturing a problem that doesn't exist.   If someone were to come up to me and out of concern and asks "why haven't you been eating?  Are you sick?"    If I simply state that I am fasting and its' no big deal, there is no problem with that; discussion is ended and I won't have anyone else coming up to me and asking me if something is wrong.   The Bible doesn't command "secret fasting."   Jesus wasn't saying that if you fast, no one can ever know about it.

 

You are trying to force something on to what Jesus was saying that isn't what He meant.   Jesus, again, was addressing the habit of the religious leaders to exaggerate their fasting practice and to publicize it to gain praise.   Jesus said not to do that.  Don't make a big deal of it.  Don't publicize it, don't make a display of it.  Do it in secret.  

 

Jesus didn't say, as you keep trying assert, that if someone finds out you're fasting, you've lost your reward.   Jesus was saying that if you are doing it for the praise of men and to gain their applause, then you have received all the "reward" you're going to get.  

[Fez]

 

 

 

The Lord is pretty smart and he can tell the difference between the need to let someone know so that they don't keep bringing food around or tempting you to break your fast and a silly attempt at trying to garner attention.   He knows the difference and you really need to be a little more honest about the text and what Jesus actually has in mind.

 

Ok, lets pretend that you shared a bit of sensative personal information with someone, and they agree to respect your privacy. However, you later find out that person did NOT respect your privacy and ended up telling someone else about your personal information.

 

When you confront them about it, the person says, "why are you upset?  It's not like I set out to tell anyone about your personal issues, but then someone asked me about what's happening with you.  I couldn't just ignore them, could I?  I had to tell them what was happening with you because they asked."

 

But that's not the same thing.  And you completely missed the point I was making...   If I am fasting, it's not sensitive private information like you are characterizing it.  i simply admit that I am fasting and it's no big deal and I just expect them respect that.  The point point I was making was that the Lord knows the difference between that and me going out and trumpeting to everyone that I am engaging in a season of prayer and fasting.   There is a marked difference between those two and I am not sure you are wanting to be honest about the difference.

 

Just about anyone would be smart enough to see the problem, there, and yet when applying this same lesson to the issue of secret fasting, you suddenly can't see the problem anymore.  You just see it as normal to tell a secret simply because someone asks you , "do you want a sandwich"?  You could just say no thanks.  Even if the person asks you 100 times if you want a sandwich, you have the freedom to say 100 times, "no thanks" without getting into the reasons why.  After all, when you are doing a secret fast for God, you don't owe that explanation to anyone.  If they can't be satisfied with, "I'm not hungry right now" or whatever excuse you feel comfortable with, then that's their problem, isn't it?  It's not like you are denying them necessary information which they just can't live without.

 

After all, if all it takes for someone to crack our faith is a bit of badgering about why we're not eating, then how can we ever expect to lay our life down?

 

The problem is that you are manufacturing a problem that doesn't exist.   If someone were to come up to me and out of concern and asks "why haven't you been eating?  Are you sick?"    If I simply state that I am fasting and its' no big deal, there is no problem with that; discussion is ended and I won't have anyone else coming up to me and asking me if something is wrong.   The Bible doesn't command "secret fasting."   Jesus wasn't saying that if you fast, no one can ever know about it.

 

You are trying to force something on to what Jesus was saying that isn't what He meant.   Jesus, again, was addressing the habit of the religious leaders to exaggerate their fasting practice and to publicize it to gain praise.   Jesus said not to do that.  Don't make a big deal of it.  Don't publicize it, don't make a display of it.  Do it in secret.  

 

Jesus didn't say, as you keep trying assert, that if someone finds out you're fasting, you've lost your reward.   Jesus was saying that if you are doing it for the praise of men and to gain their applause, then you have received all the "reward" you're going to get.  

 

Shiloh hit the nail on the head. I am in accord with what he says.

[gray_robe]

 

But that's not the same thing.

 

Not the same exact thing, sure, but the lesson is the same.  Just because someone asks you a question doesn't mean you have to say all that is in your heart.

 

 

If I am fasting, it's not sensitive private information like you are characterizing it.

 

I'm not "characterizing" anything.  I'm just looking at what Jesus taught and trying to get the spirit of the teaching.  He talked about taking steps to ensure others would not find out.  What's the point of making efforts to look happy and healthy (to avoid people realizing that you are fasting) if you talk about your fast the first time someone asks if you want some lunch?

 

I suggested earlier that such reasoning amounts to little more than a convenient doctrine.  In other words, you see opportunities to talk about your fasting while remaining innocent behind the excuse that you're not the one who brought it up.  Even in your own examples, it's not like people are assuming you are fasting and asking about it.   Sure, you have your "reasons", but the fact remains that you are volunteering the information when you don't need to.

 

 

Jesus didn't say, as you keep trying assert, that if someone finds out you're fasting, you've lost your reward.

 

It depends on the context.  If they found out because you told them, then yeah, you do lose your reward.

[Sevenseas]

It seems to me there has been some dubious teaching here with regards to the wineskins/new wine and fasting.  Taking a better look, we find, in mark 2, that Jesus

actually made THREE statements that are tied together, as follows:

 

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. 22And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.”  Mark 2

 

So then you have ask what is the common denominator here...what is Jesus saying

 

Very very simple answer.  Jesus was simply saying that you cannot mix old religious rituals with the way of faith in God that He represented.  The background, is the

twice weekly fast adopted by the Pharisees...even though the Mosaic law prescribed only one fast day on the Day of Atonement.  Apparently, John's disciples were

also in the habit of fasting.

 

When asked why His diciples did not fast,  Jesus replied with 3 parables.  The first is the wedding feast parable...a bridgroom and his groomsmen.  You don't fast at a wedding

was what Jesus was saying...not while the bridegroom is with you...referring to Himself as the Bridegroom.  Then He follows that with the garment parable and then the

wineskin parable.

 

So the op here is actually a broader subject then has been acknowledged.  In order to actually understand the words of Christ, you have to LOOK AT THE WORDS OF CHRIST

Don't leave any out and don't ADD to them...both of which seem to have been done here with a lack of rationale that leaves one scratching their heads and hoping that the author

of the op does not actually teach this and is only putting it out there for discussion.

 

The Pharisees were self righteous...hence they even added to the law.  John's disciples were observing fasting not as hypocrites, but as followers of the law.  So, we have both

types represented.  We have the self righteous and we have those who want to follow the law for salvation and Jesus says that neither way is acceptable.

 

Jesus, as the fullfillment of the law, requires that we are filled with God's Holy Spirit...the new life in Christ...following traditions and laws is not new life and it is not faith.