Breaking bottles

[gray_robe]

 

Shiloh hit the nail on the head. I am in accord with what he says.

 

Yeah so is most of the world, which is probably why Jesus felt a need to make an issue of it in the first place.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

But that's not the same thing.

 

Not the same exact thing, sure, but the lesson is the same.  Just because someone asks you a question doesn't mean you have to say all that is in your heart.

No, you acted like it was some kind of intensely private thing that I would want to hide.  I don't see Jesus saying that.

 

I'm not "characterizing" anything.  I'm just looking at what Jesus taught and trying to get the spirit of the teaching. 

 

No, you are completely ignoring the spirit of what Jesus was teaching.  You are forcing something on to His teachings that He didn't intend or say.  Maybe you need to stop acting like an old wine skin....

 

He talked about taking steps to ensure others would not find out.  What's the point of making efforts to look happy and healthy (to avoid people realizing that you are fasting) if you talk about your fast the first time someone asks if you want some lunch?

 

Jesus talked about taking steps not to make it apparent that you're fasting.  He talked about taking steps not make it an issue of pride or self-righteousness.  If you were really honest about the spirit of what Jesus was saying, you could see that.

 

 

I suggested earlier that such reasoning amounts to little more than a convenient doctrine.  In other words, you see opportunities to talk about your fasting while remaining innocent behind the excuse that you're not the one who brought it up.  Even in your own examples, it's not like people are assuming you are fasting and asking about it.   Sure, you have your "reasons", but the fact remains that you are volunteering the information when you don't need to.

 

Yeah, that's just you assigning values and motives to me.   Sorry, but you're just not very honest about what Jesus is saying here.  Jesus isn't saying that fasts have to be done in secret.   There are examples in the Bible of public, corporate fasting.

 

You are simply employing sloppy hermeneutics  because you can't bring yourself to come to grips that you are missing what Jesus is actually talking about.  You are majoring on a minor detail and ignoring the bigger picture.

 

Sorry but you are completely mistaken on all counts.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Shiloh hit the nail on the head. I am in accord with what he says.

 

Yeah so is most of the world, which is probably why Jesus felt a need to make an issue of it in the first place.

 

Actually Jesus told us why He made an issue of it.  But you have completely ignored what Jesus said and see fit to assign your own values to the text.

[Sevenseas]

 

I'll get it started with an example from Matthew 6, where Jesus tells us to keep our fasting secret.  Not only should we keep it secret  but we should take steps to make sure no one knows.  Wash our face, comb our hair, present a happy and healthy appearance despite feeling hungry and tired.

 

And yet, I've talked to many Christians who commonly talk about their fasting as though it's the most natural thing to do so.  Often when I mention Jesus' teachings, they will present various reasons for why their situation is an exception to the teaching about keeping our fasting secret. It usually only takes just a little pushing to expose a rising anger at being challenged on their public fasting.

 

What do others think?

 

 

I think you do not actually understand what Jesus was saying.  

 

Let's look at the first verse of Matthew 6:

 

Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

 

So, you might actually ask :  Do you practice YOUR righteousness in front of others in order to be seen by them?  If you do, THAT (nothing to do with

fasting or any other observance, personal or corporate) means you will have no reward from God.  

 

Reading on, we find that Jesus gives instruction on giving...with the same emphasis.

 

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

Then, Jesus covers prayer...with the same emphasis

 

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

 

And after that, AFTER that, Jesus covers fasting...with the same emphasis

 

“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

You are ADDING to the words of Christ...I am sure you do not really want to do that, but that is what you are doing as can be plainly seen from the above quotes.

 

The entire emphasis is on self righteousness...whether one is giving, prayaing or fasting....it does not matter...those are three examples...many more can be given...the command,

if you want to call it that, is most definately NOT about keeping fasting a secret...it is about fasting to be seen...or doing ANYTHING to be seen...that, is what God disapproves of.

it is about wanting the best seat and the most honor.  It is about bragging and showing off.  It is about trying to appear like you know more than others.  It is about shaking your head

at how ignorant everyone else is...it is all that the Pharisees did and more.

 

 

Here is an interesting question.

 

How about the book of Esther?  ALL the jews fasted...and every single jew knew that their neigbor jew was fasting and Esther was fasting.  How can you fast corporately if fasting is

to be kept a secret even if you have to lie, as you actually and strangely suggest in one post, to keep it a secret?  

 

Many churches today will call for a day of fasting...based on what they read in the book of Esther...now how are they going to do that if it is a BIG secret?

 

Jesus never ever said keep fasting a secret even if you have to lie.  Those are your words and you are simply wrong.

 

The emphasis on not letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing, and keeping giving a secret, actually would have more basis for your claims

regarding secrets, then what you are attemtping to define as Jesus words on fasting.

 

However, going back to the first verse, we have what follows defined and if we deviate from that, then we loose sight of the fact that Jesus was defining avoiding

self righteous...that, is what God considered the sin

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

I'll get it started with an example from Matthew 6, where Jesus tells us to keep our fasting secret.  Not only should we keep it secret  but we should take steps to make sure no one knows.  Wash our face, comb our hair, present a happy and healthy appearance despite feeling hungry and tired.

 

And yet, I've talked to many Christians who commonly talk about their fasting as though it's the most natural thing to do so.  Often when I mention Jesus' teachings, they will present various reasons for why their situation is an exception to the teaching about keeping our fasting secret. It usually only takes just a little pushing to expose a rising anger at being challenged on their public fasting.

 

What do others think?

 

 

I think you do not actually understand what Jesus was saying.  

 

Let's look at the first verse of Matthew 6:

 

Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

 

So, you might actually ask :  Do you practice YOUR righteousness in front of others in order to be seen by them?  If you do, THAT (nothing to do with

fasting or any other observance, personal or corporate) means you will have no reward from God.  

 

Reading on, we find that Jesus gives instruction on giving...with the same emphasis.

 

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

Then, Jesus covers prayer...with the same emphasis

 

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

 

And after that, AFTER that, Jesus covers fasting...with the same emphasis

 

“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

You are ADDING to the words of Christ...I am sure you do not really want to do that, but that is what you are doing as can be plainly seen from the above quotes.

 

The entire emphasis is on self righteousness...whether one is giving, prayaing or fasting....it does not matter...those are three examples...many more can be given...the command,

if you want to call it that, is most definately NOT about keeping fasting a secret...it is about fasting to be seen...or doing ANYTHING to be seen...that, is what God disapproves of.

it is about wanting the best seat and the most honor.  It is about bragging and showing off.  It is about trying to appear like you know more than others.  It is about shaking your head

at how ignorant everyone else is...it is all that the Pharisees did and more.

 

 

Here is an interesting question.

 

How about the book of Esther?  ALL the jews fasted...and every single jew knew that their neigbor jew was fasting and Esther was fasting.  How can you fast corporately if fasting is

to be kept a secret even if you have to lie, as you actually and strangely suggest in one post, to keep it a secret?  

 

Many churches today will call for a day of fasting...based on what they read in the book of Esther...now how are they going to do that if it is a BIG secret?

 

Jesus never ever said keep fasting a secret even if you have to lie.  Those are your words and you are simply wrong.

 

Yes, well said.

[Sevenseas]

 

The loaves that went out to the multitudes went out 'whole', but they came back as baskets of fragments that was a much larger amount than what went out. Jesus compared those 'fragments' that came back as 'leaven' doctrines of men that had been added.

 

That's what the 'old bottles' (or old skins) represent too. The 'new wine' is like the whole loaves that went out. With those stuck on 'old bottle' traditions of men, they are not able to expand to include the full wine of His Word. It's also comparable to what Hebrews 5 said about those who were in need of being taught the first principles of Christ when they should have progressed to the "strong meat" of God's Word becoming teachers. Instead, they were still on the 'milk' of God's Word.

 

 

 

Salty...kindly supply the scripture that will agree with what you write above concerning fragments...you state that Jesus said the fragements from the feeding of the 5000 (or 3000)

were leaven.  I don't find that Jesus says those things in the Bible I have.  Where did you read this?

[gray_robe]

Jesus, as the fullfillment of the law, requires that we are filled with God's Holy Spirit...the new life in Christ...following traditions and laws is not new life and it is not faith.  

 

Nah, I'm not talking about traditions or laws, either; just an attempt to apply the lessons Jesus taught  In particular,  I focused on the "breaking" aspect of these old, hard, inflexible wine skins, precisely because they were not able to change according to the new wine.

 

I believe this "breaking" is a metaphor for the kind of double mindedness that comes from claiming to follow Jesus, but then explaining away his teachings.  At times this dissonance can cause people to become irrational and quite angry, like what happened with the pharisees when Jesus exposed their various convenient doctrines and traditions of men. 

 

Look at Shiloh's example.  He's created a situation where he's practically obligated to talk about his fasting simply because talk of food and/or health of some kind is pretty much a normal, every day occurrence and according to him, if someone brings up food while he is fasting then he feels some kind of responsibility to let them know about it.  In this context, Jesus' command about taking steps to avoid letting others know we are fasting becomes pretty much useless since it doesn't matter how much oil we anoint ourselves with if we're just gonna talk about it anyway at the first mention (by someone other than ourselves, of course) of any topic which may even remotely relate to food.

 

I've experienced this kind of convenient doctrine making with lots of different teachings of Jesus.  When it comes to discipline and obedience most people seem to have all these reasons for exceptions to the standards.  The exceptions become the rule and all you end up with are claims of Christianity without the substance.  "There lips draw nigh to me but their heart is far from me".

 

Interestingly enough, Jesus mentions another kind of breaking, where he talks about falling on the rock of his teachings and being broken, (presumably so that God can put the pieces back together again into a new creation).  So there is a bad kind of breaking (i.e. the old bottles breaking as a result of resisting change) and a good kind of breaking (i.e. accepting the teachings of Jesus despite how painful the change may be for us).

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Jesus, as the fullfillment of the law, requires that we are filled with God's Holy Spirit...the new life in Christ...following traditions and laws is not new life and it is not faith.  

 

Look at Shiloh's example.  He's created a situation where he's practically obligated to talk about his fasting simply because talk of food and/or health of some kind is pretty much a normal, every day occurrence and according to him, if someone brings up food while he is fasting then he feels some kind of responsibility to let them know about it.  In this context, Jesus' command about taking steps to avoid letting others know we are fasting becomes pretty much useless since it doesn't matter how much oil we anoint ourselves with if we're just gonna talk about it anyway at the first mention (by someone other than ourselves, of course) of any topic which may even remotely relate to food.

You're as sloppy with my words as you are with Jesus' words.   I never said I was obligated to talk about fasting at all.   I simply stated that if I mention it to a questioning person, I haven't violated any commandment of Jesus.

 

Jesus never said that no one was to find out if we are fasting.  You are adding to Jesus' words.  Jesus' point was to not make a display of it, to be seen as fasting in an attempt to garner praise.

 

Sorry gray robe but you don't know what you're talking about on this one.

[Sevenseas]

 

I'm not "characterizing" anything.  I'm just looking at what Jesus taught and trying to get the spirit of the teaching.  He talked about taking steps to ensure others would not find out.  What's the point of making efforts to look happy and healthy (to avoid people realizing that you are fasting) if you talk about your fast the first time someone asks if you want some lunch?

 

I suggested earlier that such reasoning amounts to little more than a convenient doctrine.  In other words, you see opportunities to talk about your fasting while remaining innocent behind the excuse that you're not the one who brought it up.  Even in your own examples, it's not like people are assuming you are fasting and asking about it.   Sure, you have your "reasons", but the fact remains that you are volunteering the information when you don't need to.

 

 

 

 

Jesus, as the fullfillment of the law, requires that we are filled with God's Holy Spirit...the new life in Christ...following traditions and laws is not new life and it is not faith.  

 

Nah, I'm not talking about traditions or laws, either; just an attempt to apply the lessons Jesus taught  In particular,  I focused on the "breaking" aspect of these old, hard, inflexible wine skins, precisely because they were not able to change according to the new wine.

 

I believe this "breaking" is a metaphor for the kind of double mindedness that comes from claiming to follow Jesus, but then explaining away his teachings.  At times this dissonance can cause people to become irrational and quite angry, like what happened with the pharisees when Jesus exposed their various convenient doctrines and traditions of men. 

 

Look at Shiloh's example.  He's created a situation where he's practically obligated to talk about his fasting simply because talk of food and/or health of some kind is pretty much a normal, every day occurrence and according to him, if someone brings up food while he is fasting then he feels some kind of responsibility to let them know about it.  In this context, Jesus' command about taking steps to avoid letting others know we are fasting becomes pretty much useless since it doesn't matter how much oil we anoint ourselves with if we're just gonna talk about it anyway at the first mention (by someone other than ourselves, of course) of any topic which may even remotely relate to food.

 

I've experienced this kind of convenient doctrine making with lots of different teachings of Jesus.  When it comes to discipline and obedience most people seem to have all these reasons for exceptions to the standards.  The exceptions become the rule and all you end up with are claims of Christianity without the substance.  "There lips draw nigh to me but their heart is far from me".

 

Interestingly enough, Jesus mentions another kind of breaking, where he talks about falling on the rock of his teachings and being broken, (presumably so that God can put the pieces back together again into a new creation).  So there is a bad kind of breaking (i.e. the old bottles breaking as a result of resisting change) and a good kind of breaking (i.e. accepting the teachings of Jesus despite how painful the change may be for us).

 

 

 

I didn't say that you were.  That, is what Jesus was talking about and that is what the op is actually about even if you do not see that.

 

I don't explain away Jesus teachings but neither do I add to them and that is not always easy.  Which is why is why I need to understand to whom He was speaking and

why in order to bring His rationale or teaching into my 21st C life.

 

Why are you making people angry?  Why do you goad them until they are angry by trying to get them to acknowledge that what you present is actually what they should do?

 

I've read the entire thread twice and I am not taking sides, but is seems to me you are insisting on something that is just not in scritpure!

 

Sorry, but as far as Shiloh goes, that is baloney what you say.  He is responding to your irrantional and impossible defence of your stand and then you are trotting out

yet another supposed area where he has deviated from what Jesus said.

 

 

Listen, if I am fasting and I am invited for dinner...and that has happened...I would simply state it is inconvenient at the time...but I would appreciate another date?

 

Further, within my family, I have made known to some I was fasting in order to have their help in areas where it was needed because I was fasting and I have

done likewise.  There is nothing wrong with that.  If you cannot depend on and share with your brothers and sisters in Christ, then really, what do you have?

 

 

Interestingly enough, Jesus mentions another kind of breaking, where he talks about falling on the rock of his teachings and being broken, (presumably so that God can put the pieces back together again into a new creation).  So there is a bad kind of breaking (i.e. the old bottles breaking as a result of resisting change) and a good kind of breaking (i.e. accepting the teachings of Jesus despite how painful the change may be for us).

 

 

 

You have so taken this out of context that I am almost in physical pain.  You just cannot rip out scripture and insert like some kind of hodge podge presciption to substantiate

and develop a teaching that is wrong to begin with and attempt to give it the import of the words of Christ Himself when He said no such thing.

 

And how about Esther et al?

[gray_robe]

Regarding "corporate fasting", the same principle still applies. Let's say you have 3 friends who agree to fast together.  You'd still want to keep it quiet from anyone NOT participating in the fast.  Jesus' teachings are spirit; that means he gave general principles which act as guidelines for how we should behave as Christians.  He did it this way because it's simply not possible, or practical for him to give a rule about every single situation for every single person in creation.

 

So for example, lets say you give someone a nice compliment.  You don't go around telling other people about the nice compliment you gave.  You just give the compliment for the intended recipient and then keep quiet about it to others, since there's no real need for them to know that you complimented this other person.  Even though Jesus didn't specifically mention compliments, the spirit is still the same; if you tell others about the nice thing you did then you lose your reward in Heaven.  You can still teach that it's good to give compliments, but there's no need to mention your own specific examples to prove the point.

 

If someone finds out about the nice thing you did without your intention for them to do so, then that's different.  As Shiloh said, God isn't stupid. He knows the difference between people who respect Jesus' teachings and those who give lip service.