Breaking bottles

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Gray robe, I didn't say I didn't care where the concept of leading in prayer comes from.  I said I am not interested in discussing it.   

 

And yes, you are adding to Jesus' words.

 

I am not changing standards.

 

I am asking you a simple question:   Based on Jesus' words about prayer, is it wrong for a father to lead his family in prayer before a meal?  Is it wrong for a pastor to lead his congregation in prayer in a church service, given that Jesus clearly states that when we pray, we are not pray in our inner chamber and closet?

 

Just answer the question...

[Fez]

Just answer the question...

 

[gray_robe]

You want to talk about prayer, I'm talking about prayer.  You expressed concern about getting the words of Jesus right so that's what I'm attempting to do. 

 

You asked me about "leading in prayer", I'm also asking you about" leading in prayer".  What is your understanding of where this teaching about "leading in prayer" comes from?  Can you compare this teaching about "leading in prayer" to anything Jesus said about "prayer and show us a comparison between the two which is consistent?

 

"Leading in prayer" is your topic.  It's your responsibility to defend it.

[gray_robe]

I'd like to take a moment to remind people that the topic of this thread is about rejecting the teachings of Jesus (the new wine).  New wine skins are soft and flexible.  They change with the new wine.  Old wine skins are hard and inflexible.  They do not change.

 

Shiloh post# 50

If we take your approach to the Scriptures, then a Father leading his family in prayer at a meal or family devotional time would be disobeying Jesus.

 

Your method of interpretation would completely ignore the occasion for Jesus' words.

 

.

Shiloh brings up "leading in prayer" and asks me about it.  He clearly makes a connection between "leading in prayer" and the words of Jesus. This "words of Jesus" thing is something Shiloh has consistently expressed concern over, not only as the basis for his own right interpretation, but as the basis for my wrong interpretation.  In other words, he's not shy about expressing the importance of Jesus' words in a way which implies credibility to his argument.

 

Okay, so I ask him about it...

 

 

Shiloh, do you have any idea where this concept of "leading in prayer" (as you describe it) started?

 

Where did the teaching come from?  I've set Shiloh up with the perfect opportunity to back up his claim with the word's of Jesus.  I was expecting that Shiloh would post a Bible verse or two with an explanation clearly showing the words of Jesus.  After all, he consistently made an issue of the words of Jesus being so very important, right?

 

This was his response...

 

 

Shiloh post#66

 

You didn't answer my question, gray robe.   Do you think that a father leading his family in prayer violates Jesus' statements about prayer in the Sermon  on the Mount?  I am not interested in discussing where the concept came from.

 

Wait a minute?  What about all that inspiring talk about how important it is to get the words of Jesus right?  Here I am,  inviting Shiloh to let us know what Jesus said about it, to get the words right, and he says he's not interested in that part?  Weird...

 

Then Shiloh gets a bit of help...

 

 

Fez post#69

 

Classic deflection, refusing to answer questions through asking another. Please answer the question Shiloh asked you.

 

 

Fez is addressing me here and my attempt to get some clarification from Shiloh about where the "leading in prayer" teaching comes from.   Of course, I didn't refuse anything.  I asked for clarification on Shiloh's topic but Fez doesn't seem to think that's important.  He says suggests it's a deflection, but a deflection from what?  Addressing where the teaching comes from?  But isn't that really important?  Wasn't that the topic; to know what Jesus said about these various teachings so we can know if we've got it right or not?

 

Why would Fez imply that it is a deflection to want to know what Jesus said about it?  And why would Shiloh support him in this stance?

 

Shiloh responds,

 

 

Shiloh post#71

 

Gray robe, I didn't say I didn't care where the concept of leading in prayer comes from.  I said I am not interested in discussing it.   

 

And yes, you are adding to Jesus' words.

 

I am not changing standards.

 

Not interested in discussing where the teaching comes from?  What a confusing thing to say, considering we're talking about what Jesus taught.

 

From the same post:

 

 

I am asking you a simple question:   Based on Jesus' words about prayer, is it wrong for a father to lead his family in prayer before a meal?

 

You get to talk about "Jesus' words about prayer", but when I ask you about Jesus' words on prayer regarding "leading in prayer" you're suddenly not interested.  I don't really see that as a problem for me, though, but it does sound awfully suspicious.

 

 

Is it wrong for a pastor to lead his congregation in prayer in a church service, given that Jesus clearly states that when we pray, we are not pray in our inner chamber and closet?

 

Just answer the question...

 

Didn't you just answer your own question, though?  Is it wrong for a person to stand in front of others, praying a prayer which is meant for God, for the purpose of them all listening to that prayer when Jesus said that we should not pray in front of others for the purpose of being heard by them, but rather that we should pray in secret so that only God hears?

 

Are you suggesting that you cannot compare the two statements and make your own decision? Why don't you try it?  Post the two teachings side by side, what Jesus actually said, and what the "leading in prayer" teaching says and let's compare them to answer the question.

[Guest shiloh357]

You are making this far more complicated than it has to be, gray robe.

 

I asked you a simple question about whether you think, that based on what Jesus said about prayer, that a man who leads his family in prayer is violating the teachings of Jesus?   If it is not wrong for a father to do that, would you explain why?

 

It's not that I can't make the comparison.  I can.   I am just wanting to understand how you approach the issue Jesus raised about prayer the light of a scenario I listed above such as a father leading his family in prayer or preacher leading his church in prayer.  

 

Are those two scenarios violating the words of Jesus in your view?

[Guest]

 

where this concept of "leading in prayer" started?

 

Where did the teaching come from? 

 

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

~

 

You are making this far more complicated than it has to be, gray robe.

 

I asked you a simple question about whether you think, that based on what Jesus said about prayer, that a man who leads his family in prayer is violating the teachings of Jesus?   If it is not wrong for a father to do that, would you explain why?

 

It's not that I can't make the comparison.  I can.   I am just wanting to understand how you approach the issue Jesus raised about prayer the light of a scenario I listed above such as a father leading his family in prayer or preacher leading his church in prayer.  

 

Are those two scenarios violating the words of Jesus in your view?

 

~

 

Well

 

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 5:8

 

It Seems To Me

 

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

 

Beloved, That God Gets It Right

 

See that none render evil for evil unto any man;

 

but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

 

Rejoice evermore.

 

Pray without ceasing.

 

In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 1 Thessalonians 5:15-18

 

It Seems

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

 

To Me

 

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest]

In Matthew 9 Jesus tells a parable about pouring new wine into old bottles. 

 

What do others think?

 

 

Yes

 

And no one

 

pours new wine into old wineskins.

 

Otherwise, the new wine will burst the skins;

 

the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. Luke 5:37 (NIV)

 

The Old

 

To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,

 

and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self,

 

created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Ephesians 4:22-24 (ESV)

 

And The New

 

“Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old.

 

Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?

 

I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert.

 

The wild beasts will honor me, the jackals and the ostriches,

 

for I give water in the wilderness, rivers in the desert, to give drink to my chosen people,

 

the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise. Isaiah 43:18-21 (ESV)

 

And Maybe It's True

 

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

 

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them,

 

Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

 

For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

 

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

 

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,

 

I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

 

and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

 

and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

And on my servants and on my handmaidens

 

I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;

 

and they shall prophesy: Acts 2:13-18 (KJV)

 

You Think?

 

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,

 

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3 (KJV)

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[OneLight]

This topic is closed.  When anyone opens a thread, and refuses to answer questions, the topic will be closed.