Kan Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2015 It is dangerous to burden a new believer with the expectation that they be perfect. Well aged Christians can't even agree on what is sin. I dare not believe I am equal to Jesus. My righteousness is Jesus. We all come to Jesus as we are. Broken in humbleness. He puts us together. Changes us from the inside. Each is a work in progress for the rest of our lives. To tell someone they must be perfect is a burden nobody can fulfill but Jesus. Trust in Jesus. Do you think our idea of perfection is one that cannot be attained to? The Pharisees said "if we all could but live a day without sin, then the Messiah would come" In the mean time they created about a thousand laws from sneezing to breathing, so that no one even dreamed of perfection. I don't think Jesus would tell us to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect, if it was a difficult thing like the Pharisees put out. Perfection has to be simple and attainable by faith. Trusting as a child does. That's OK isn't it? even to the newby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2015 Mr. Nice, you've gone over and over this in page after page here. Obviously this is a hot button for you, and just as obviously, most of us disagree. So my question would be, WHY is it so important to you to belabor the point? All of us here are working out our salvation with fear and trembling. As the cartoon says, why not just give us grace to do that, and "let it go"? I mean, if living a sinless life is the gold standard, I suppose when you die and get to heaven you and Jesus will pretty much have the place to yourselves. It comes down to what you and I believe is perfection and sinlessness doesn't it? When it comes to love, we all know that we either love or we don't. So if we love God, we are not sitting on the fence. Can we and do we get conned into breaking or neglecting the love between us and God? Yes. Is it possible not to be conned and led away from Christ? Yes. Would we know when that takes place? No. Do we accept by faith that "He is able to keep us from falling" ? That's the question. Our answer will be based on either what the Bible says or on what we have experienced to date. Now we can have victory over sin if we believe in the promises of God, but if we rely on our own experience as proof, then we have nothing to believe in but failure. What if believing in Christ totally will bring the victory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted January 31, 2015 It is dangerous to burden a new believer with the expectation that they be perfect. Well aged Christians can't even agree on what is sin. I dare not believe I am equal to Jesus. My righteousness is Jesus. We all come to Jesus as we are. Broken in humbleness. He puts us together. Changes us from the inside. Each is a work in progress for the rest of our lives. To tell someone they must be perfect is a burden nobody can fulfill but Jesus. Trust in Jesus. Do you think our idea of perfection is one that cannot be attained to? So perfection is determined by what man says? I had been thinking what God considers perfection. Wikipedia, "Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean one no longer violates the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have a continuing need to pray for forgivenessand holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather wrote, “Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ.”[5] Wesley did not use perfection to describe sinlessness. Similarly, perfection is not the state of being unable to sin, but rather the state of choosing not to sin. Wesley's perfection represents a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride. Wesley also did not view perfection as permanent. As regarding the concept of sinless perfection, John Wesley himself did not use this term and noted in his book A Plain Account of Christian Perfection that "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use," Does any of this strike you as self centered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Nice Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 118 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/28/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 It is dangerous to burden a new believer with the expectation that they be perfect. Well aged Christians can't even agree on what is sin. I dare not believe I am equal to Jesus. My righteousness is Jesus. We all come to Jesus as we are. Broken in humbleness. He puts us together. Changes us from the inside. Each is a work in progress for the rest of our lives. To tell someone they must be perfect is a burden nobody can fulfill but Jesus. Trust in Jesus. Do you think our idea of perfection is one that cannot be attained to? So perfection is determined by what man says? I had been thinking what God considers perfection. Wikipedia, "Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean one no longer violates the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have a continuing need to pray for forgivenessand holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather wrote, “Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ.”[5] Wesley did not use perfection to describe sinlessness. Similarly, perfection is not the state of being unable to sin, but rather the state of choosing not to sin. Wesley's perfection represents a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride. Wesley also did not view perfection as permanent. As regarding the concept of sinless perfection, John Wesley himself did not use this term and noted in his book A Plain Account of Christian Perfection that "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use," Does any of this strike you as self centered? Interesting. You start off with the question “So perfection is determined by what man says” and then you go to a man (Wesley) instead of the Bible to justify your position. You (Wesley) made a couple of points I do agree with if I understand you correctly. I do believe a Christian is able to sin. However, there are two types of sin one may commit. There are sins of ignorance, meaning sins which we do not know to be sin, and then there are willful sins, those which we know to be sin. A Christian cannot commit both. If a Christian commits a sin he does not know to be sin he is not guilty until he learns it is sin. This doesn’t mean we can refrain from learning what pleases the Lord, for that is sin. Once he learns he has sinned he must repent of it. If he continues in it then he is separated from God. If a person does that which he knows to be sin after he has come to the knowledge of the truth he will be judged according to his sin for the deeds of the flesh will be judged by the Law. The question then must be, if a person claims to be saved yet continues to commit willful sin was he ever really saved. When John says one who is born of God does not sin, he is declaring that it is impossible to claim to be born of God and be willfully sinning at the same time. Just like he says if one claims to know God but does not keep His commandments that man is a liar and the truth is not in him. We cannot know God and commit sin at the same time. Similarly he says one who does not keep His commandments does not abide in Him. He also says one who says he abides in Him is to walk as Christ walked. Clearly, John is saying only those who keep God’s commandments are the ones who know, abide, and are born of God. This is also evident when Christ says those who keep His commandments are those who love Him. No one can do this unless he is led by the Spirit, the same Spirit who led Christ, which Christ sent to us to be our helper. I do agree as Wesley says perfection is represented by “a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride” specifically a change of life. The change in life is sanctification through the Holy Spirit through whom we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, thus being perfected by the Spirit the same way Christ was perfected by the Spirit. Does love do harm to a neighbor or sin against God? Matthew 5:48 was about being perfect in love as God is perfect in love. However, the only people who have His love perfected in them are those who keep His commandments, 1 John 2:3-6. Unfortunately, Wesley was not complete in his understanding of what being perfected in love means. John also defined what the love of God is. 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. None of what I say sounds self-centered because it is centered on Christ’s work in us through His Holy Spirit. Therefore it is Christ centered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2015 Do you think our idea of perfection is one that cannot be attained to? So perfection is determined by what man says? I had been thinking what God considers perfection. Wikipedia, "Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean one no longer violates the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have a continuing need to pray for forgivenessand holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather wrote, “Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ.”[5] Wesley did not use perfection to describe sinlessness. Similarly, perfection is not the state of being unable to sin, but rather the state of choosing not to sin. Wesley's perfection represents a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride. Wesley also did not view perfection as permanent. As regarding the concept of sinless perfection, John Wesley himself did not use this term and noted in his book A Plain Account of Christian Perfection that "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use," Does any of this strike you as self centered? I like that you have been thinking of what God considers perfection. Personally I would only want to think about that and not make any theological treatises about it as some scholars do. I think what may be a point of contention is that perfection suggests that there is no more need for Christian growth, which often involves making mistakes and learning from them. So perhaps our ideas of perfection are not really Biblical, not really what God means by it. A child can be perfect for its age, just like a Christian can be perfect for what they know, and only God can judge that. We need to treat each other as perfect in the Christian life, perfect by faith in Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Interesting. You start off with the question “So perfection is determined by what man says” and then you go to a man (Wesley) instead of the Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Nice Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 118 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/28/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Interesting. You start off with the question “So perfection is determined by what man says” and then you go to a man (Wesley) instead of the Bible Yes I see, I brought up Wesley in trying to understand if that is your position. I have a long ways to go in becoming more clear in communicating. And so I am here attempting to listen a little better also. I realize I don't always make sense so I guess it is good that you pointed this out. I will have to reread this thread later and see if I can comprehend what is being said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted February 20, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Was Christ perfect when He came to earth or was He made perfect while on earth? If you answer yes to the second half of the question, how was He made perfect? I'm sure this question has been answered sufficiently, but I would also like to chime in. Christ was "perfect" as far as his nature, character, flawlessness from sin. When scripture says he was "made perfect", in context it is speaking of his mission. His sufferings as a man, his completion in obeying every objective that the Father set out for him. He finished his work, in human experience, and securing salvation for mankind. Could Christ have sinned? If no, how was He tempted as we are? Christ could be tempted because he took on humanity, being fully man he was susceptible to the various weaknesses that men hold, but he could not sin, or should I say it was impossible for him to fail God(The Father). Scripture is clear that sin could find no place in him. Further more if he could have sinned it would have made the word of God a lie, because all the things Prophesied about him would have been wrong. In the mind of God Messiah's mission was accomplished before he laid the foundations of the world. Jesus fulfilled every last jot and tittle, confirming that he was the Messiah. How was He sent to the earth in the form of sinful flesh if he did not have all the characteristics? Jesus was literally God in the flesh. The flesh itself, or the body is not sinful, it is the nature of man in Adam that is sinful. In salvation Christ actually shares his nature (Holy, Harmless, UNDEFILED) with us. We partake of his divine nature. Even though his humanity was weak, being the Holy one and creator of all things, he destroyed sin in the flesh. It could not overcome him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted February 21, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,225 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,512 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Hi saved34, I appreciated you comments which I thought were very good. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted February 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 21, 2015 Was Christ perfect when He came to earth Yes (Mt 1:21-23). Immanuel is "God with us", and God is indeed perfect (Mt 5:48). or was He made perfect while on earth? If you answer yes to the second half of the question, how was He made perfect? Yes. The Greek word translated as "perfect" in Heb 2:10 is teleioo which can mean (1) perfect, (2) complete, or (3) fully accomplished. So when we read: "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings", what we are told is that Christ was made the complete Savior through sufferings (since He came as the Lamb of God). Could Christ have sinned? If no, how was He tempted as we are? No. There is the external inducement to sin (temptation) and there is the interal desire to sin (lust). While there were multiple external inducements, there was no internal desire because of this (Heb 7:26): "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;" How was He sent to the earth in the form of sinful flesh if he did not have all the charicteristics? The "form" (KJV "likeness") of sinful flesh means the similitude (Gk homoióma) of sinful flesh. "Sinful flesh" here means sinful humanity. So while Christ appeared as an ordinary man to others, that was the outward appearance. The inward reality was absolute holiness, righteousness, and perfection. How was He able to offer Himself without blemish? "Blemish" means imperfection, and in this context moral or spiritual imperfection. Since Christ (a) had no sin, (b) could not sin and © did not sin, there was no moral or spiritual imperfection in Him (see above). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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