The 144,000 First-Fruits

[wingnut-]

Agreed.

 

As I've written before, the Church is a spiritual (ruach) body, while Israel is a blood-and-soul race. The elect of the Church, who live according to the Spirit, will be taken up in Spirit. The race of Israel will remain upon earth, to fulfill YHWH's earthly promises of land and kingdom made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through their soul-line's/race's seed. That earthly kingdom is established at the 7th Trumpet, after the 1260 days/3-1/2 times/42 months of "Jacob's trouble" are fulfilled. (Established, but not yet overcoming all nations until the 7th Bowl is accomplished.)

 

At Mount Sinai, when God descended in fire, cloud, earthquake, and with shofar the first time, 70 elders of Israel went up into and were sanctified in his Presence, then returned to earth, so to speak. But Moses and Joshua remained upon the mountain. These things were a type of when Jesus/God descends in fire, cloud, earthquake, and with shofar the second time. The 144,000 will be sanctified by the Presence, "sealed in their foreheads," but then return (physically? mentally?) to earth to become the earthly leaders of Israel, just as the 70 elders were to Israel in their day.

 

So their sealing will take place at the same time as the Rapture of the elect, who will remain upon heavenly Mount Zion, like Moses and Joshua remained upon Mount Sinai.

 

 

Perhaps you can explain why the seal would be necessary at this point, or why this is written much earlier in the tribulation.

 

Revelation 9:⁴ They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

[WilliamL]

Perhaps you can explain why the seal would be necessary at this point, or why this is written much earlier in the tribulation.

 

Revelation 9:⁴ They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

 

I disagree that Rev. 9:4 is "much earlier in the tribulation."

 

Last Daze and I see the Trib ending at the 6th seal, at which point the Wrath of God begins, 6:17. During the Wrath, "the time of Jacob's trouble" takes place. The sealing-sanctification of the 144,000 spiritually protects and fortifies them right at the beginning of the Wrath. The Rev. 9:4 passage shows that "those people who DO have the seal of God on their foreheads" -- the 144,000 -- are protected, while the unsealed are not.

[wingnut-]

 

Perhaps you can explain why the seal would be necessary at this point, or why this is written much earlier in the tribulation.

 

Revelation 9:⁴ They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

 

I disagree that Rev. 9:4 is "much earlier in the tribulation."

 

Last Daze and I see the Trib ending at the 6th seal, at which point the Wrath of God begins, 6:17. During the Wrath, "the time of Jacob's trouble" takes place. The sealing-sanctification of the 144,000 spiritually protects and fortifies them right at the beginning of the Wrath. The Rev. 9:4 passage shows that "those people who DO have the seal of God on their foreheads" -- the 144,000 -- are protected, while the unsealed are not.

 

 

Well, the 5th trumpet is the first woe, so I'm not sure how you place that after the 6th seal.

[ghtan]

Hi all,

 

I too believe that the 144k are ethnic Jews and that they are sealed during the tribulation, after the events of ch 6 but before God pours out his wrath in the form of the trumpet plagues of ch 8-9. However, God's decision to seal only 144k Jewish believers, and thus protect them from the trumpet plagues, would seem racially bias....unless all other believers are raptured at this point. That makes most sense to me, and therefore I believe in a mid-tribulation rapture.

[Last Daze]

Hi all,

 

I too believe that the 144k are ethnic Jews and that they are sealed during the tribulation, after the events of ch 6 but before God pours out his wrath in the form of the trumpet plagues of ch 8-9. However, God's decision to seal only 144k Jewish believers, and thus protect them from the trumpet plagues, would seem racially bias....unless all other believers are raptured at this point. That makes most sense to me, and therefore I believe in a mid-tribulation rapture.

 

Hello ghtan,

 

Don't forget that the "rapture" is just a part of a larger event:

 

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thess 4:15-17

 

There is a resurrection that precedes the "catching up".  The resurrection happens on the last day.

[wingnut-]

Hi all,

 

I too believe that the 144k are ethnic Jews and that they are sealed during the tribulation, after the events of ch 6 but before God pours out his wrath in the form of the trumpet plagues of ch 8-9. However, God's decision to seal only 144k Jewish believers, and thus protect them from the trumpet plagues, would seem racially bias....unless all other believers are raptured at this point. That makes most sense to me, and therefore I believe in a mid-tribulation rapture.

 

Consider that believers already have the seal of the Holy Spirit, which is on our hearts.  This is what Paul discusses regarding the matter of circumcision, God bless you.

[Sister]

 

Thank you everyone.

 

Can anyone tell me when these 144,000 get sealed?

 

 

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

At the midway point, right about the time the antichrist will rise from the fatal head wound.  Somewhere around the time of the 5th trumpet.

 

 

 

Rev 7:1   And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor an any tree.

 

Rev 7:2   And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea.

 

Rev 7:3   Saying Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

Rev 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

 

Hi Wingnut.

 

It appears to me that the sealing is taking place just before the wrath of God starts.

Once the first angel sounds,  is when the real damage begins on the earth.

 

The first angel sounds after the Mark of the beast is issued.

There are only 7 angels in total, that send the plagues as instructed.

They sound the trumpet, then pour out the vial.

 

Rev 16:2   And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image.

 

So the sealing can't be on the 5th trumpet/vial, but before the first.

What do you think?

[Sister]

 

 

Thank you everyone.

 

Can anyone tell me when these 144,000 get sealed?

 

 

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

At the midway point, right about the time the antichrist will rise from the fatal head wound.  Somewhere around the time of the 5th trumpet.

 

 

If you see Revelation 7 as being after the sixth seal and before the seventh, as I do, then they are sealed just after the great tribulation ends (sixth seal) and just before God's judgment of the trumpets / bowls (seventh seal).

 

Hi Last Daze

 

I see them being sealed before the wrath begins.

The wrath starts straight after the world receives the Mark of the Beast.

These 144,000 are sealed for a reason.  The plagues cannot touch them.

 

Rev 9:1   ...And the fifth angel sounded......

Rev 9:4   And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

[Salty]

Hello all,

 

First of all, what is the idea of the 'sealing' in Rev.7?

 

2 Cor.1

21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

 

In 2 Corinthians, Apostle Paul linked being sealed linked with The Holy Spirit (see John 12 thru 16 also). Jesus promised those who have believed on The Father through Him the blessing of The Holy Spirit and He would teach us all things. Without Him one cannot rightly divide God's Word properly to get understanding.

 

Thus, this 'sealing' by The Holy Spirit began after our Lord Jesus' death and resurrection when He told His disciples to not leave Jerusalem until The Holy Spirit baptism had come upon them, per the Book of Acts. It has continued since then, and will continue until the tribulation timing.

 

And the fact that Christ's Apostles showed understanding about events to occur for the very end of this world (our days), further shows that's when this 'sealing' first began after the Passion of Christ. And because Apostle Peter also told us for the last days to be mindful also of what God's OT prophets were given to write, that shows the prophets were under unction by The Holy Spirit to write down the end time events for those of us also in the last days.

 

But do I believe there is also a specific time of that 'sealing' for the end also, like Rev.7 suggests? Yes. Likewise, I have seen many brethren in the last three decades begin to fall away, even from some of the most simplest matters in God's Word, as if spiritual blindness had been put upon them. And amazingly, lot of the new believers showed a much deeper grasp of matters in God's Word than many of those who had been attending Church most of their lives! So yes, I definitely believe their has been a time of 'sealing' going on for folks specifically in these last days (our generation). In other words, it's not something that has to wait until the "great tribulation" begins. Instead, it's a prep for... going through the "great tribulation" events our Lord Jesus foretold us in Matthew 24 and His Revelation.

[Sister]

Hi all,

 

I too believe that the 144k are ethnic Jews and that they are sealed during the tribulation, after the events of ch 6 but before God pours out his wrath in the form of the trumpet plagues of ch 8-9. However, God's decision to seal only 144k Jewish believers, and thus protect them from the trumpet plagues, would seem racially bias....unless all other believers are raptured at this point. That makes most sense to me, and therefore I believe in a mid-tribulation rapture.

Hi ghtan

 

Thank you for your input.

 

The scriptures indicate that the 144,000 are sealed before the 7 angels sound. 

The great tribulation consists of the saints having to make a big choice on which side they will go when it comes to their lives, (the Mark of the Beast)

....then being persecuted for making that choice if they refuse the mark,

and when this stage has been completed, tribulation will follow on the whole world now.  It's a great tribulation.  Everybody is affected.

Any man that receive the mark of the Beast will share in Babylon's punishment.

The scriptures say;

 Revelation 13:16   And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

 

He causes all (who are not in Christ) to receive his mark.

And we were warned;

Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

 

 

The scriptures say that the Christians will be persecuted first, then God's revenge will start on the world for what they did to the saints, and all those saints before them too.

It only makes sense to me that the Christians are put to a big test on whose side they will choose.  They will be forced to choose.  If they refuse the Mark of the Beast and suffer persecution, then they have chosen Christ.

 

If the ethnic Jews choose Christ, then they are also Christians and will go through the same tribulation.

...but if they are not Christians, then it makes no sense that they receive special protection, and as you said that would make God racially bias for all that follow Christ are one.  There's only two sides, and no middle ground.

 

We know there will be a remnant of Israel spared, but they will go through tribulation also with the rest of the world, and when Christ returns, he will stop that war, or no flesh will be saved.  The remnants will be amongst them that survive.

 

Mark 13:20   And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

The scriptures clearly state that the 144,000 are protected, as the 5th angel is instructed to only harm those who have not got the Seal of God on their forehead.

There are only 144,000 that are sealed.  It is clear.  No man can change what is written.

 

And we know the 144,000 are Christians, because they followed the Lamb wheresoever he went.  They were faultless before God.

They were followers of Christ.

 

There's a twist to this I know, but please be patient and we will get there.