Rev. 7's great multitude before the throne

[Last Daze]

 

“... the great day of His wrath came [and continues: aorist verb tense], and who is able to stand?”

 

This verse reveals that the wrath begins after the opening of the 6th Seal. So we can see that the Lord has already come for his Church by this time. Verse 16 tells us that the people of earth say,

 

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

 

-- which means that they have seen them!

 

When does everyone see Jesus?

 

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

 

And this is what we see 6:16-17, after the 6th Seal is opened: the peoples of earth are wailing because they have seen the coming of Christ and have recognized him. They are wailing because they had reviled and rejected him, and are now greatly afraid of the consequences.

 

 

I agree that the sixth seal indicates that the time for God's wrath has come.  This is seen in the seventh seal where the seven plague angels begin to sound the trumpets.

 

I'm not sure why you think the resurrection takes place at or before the sixth seal though.  There are numerous passages saying that the resurrection takes place on the last day.  What do you see as the last day?

 

I don't find anything in the sixth seal to indicate that the people of earth see Christ.  What they see first is the sign of the son of Man as described in the first part of Matthew 24:30.  This is the sixth seal where the sky is rolled back and people see the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb, the same scene as is pictured in Rev 5.  They don't actually see the Son of Man at the sixth seal.  It's not until the seventh trumpet / bowl, the latter part of Matthew 24:30, that they actually see the Son of Man.

[MorningGlory]

 

I'm not sure why you're making a distinction between martyrs who were given a robe and martyrs who washed their robes.  They all held to the testimony of Jesus unto death.  Who is to say that the robes that were given to the martyrs weren't the ones they had previously washed by their being martyred?

 

 

There comes a time when people disagree just to be disagreeing.  The idea put forth above simply isn't logical.  God doesn't do repetitive or ineffectual things....

[Last Daze]

 

 

I'm not sure why you're making a distinction between martyrs who were given a robe and martyrs who washed their robes.  They all held to the testimony of Jesus unto death.  Who is to say that the robes that were given to the martyrs weren't the ones they had previously washed by their being martyred?

 

 

There comes a time when people disagree just to be disagreeing.  The idea put forth above simply isn't logical.  God doesn't do repetitive or ineffectual things....

 

 

If you're saying that I'm disagreeing just to be disagreeable then you are wrong.  I was asking why he was making that distinction.  There is a reason for it, whether you can see it or not, and it is not illogical as I understand his post.  That's why I'm asking for clarification.  Maybe you would care to expound on the distinction? 

[rollinTHUNDER]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2015 at 3:34 PM, WilliamL said:

 

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2015 at 8:00 PM, rollinTHUNDER said:

 

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2) Why does this passage come after the 6th Seal, and before the 7th Seal?

 

 

It's the next scene John sees in heaven. John did not say when they got there. They were already standing around the throne when he saw them. The resurrection/rapture has nothing to do with the seals, but it occurs before God's wrath. I believe they will arrive before the fifth seal is opened, as they are kept from the hour of trial, unlike the martyrs (lukewarm).

 

 

John does "say when they got there":

 

Rev. 7:14 "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation..." 

 

Now, either this means that they came from the midst of the trib, or, they came through and thus out of the trib.

 

Hi William,

 

It appears you are contradicting yourself here. You claim John does say when they got there, so when is it, in the midst of, or through the great tribulation? These would not be the same time if those days are shortened for the sake of the elect. Obviously the martyrs are not the elect that will be ready. And this is why I say the rapture occurs before the 5th seal is opened.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Quote

"The resurrection/rapture has nothing to do with the seals, but it occurs before God's wrath."

 

Disagree. Rev. 6:17 tells us,

 

“... the great day of His wrath came [and continues: aorist verb tense], and who is able to stand?”

 

This verse reveals that the wrath begins after the opening of the 6th Seal. So we can see that the Lord has already come for his Church by this time. Verse 16 tells us that the people of earth say,

 

 

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

 

-- which means that they have seen them!

 

When does everyone see Jesus?

 

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

 

And this is what we see 6:16-17, after the 6th Seal is opened: the peoples of earth are wailing because they have seen the coming of Christ and have recognized him. They are wailing because they had reviled and rejected him, and are now greatly afraid of the consequences.

 

 

I agree the Lord has already come (rapture) before the 6th seal, obviously, since I believe He comes before they start killing the martyrs (5th seal). By the way, Revelation 6 is only referring to the tribulation martyrs who are killed (after) the rapture, because martyrs who were killed before the rapture will be resurrected with the dead in Christ. God is waiting to unleash His wrath after all of these tribulation martyrs have been killed, which will also be the end of the first resurrection or the resurrection of the just.   

Now, as to when every eye will see Him and all the tribes mourn? This is back in Matt. 24.

Matthew 24:29-31 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sun, moon and stars appear to be the same in Matt. 24 and the 6th seal, but they are not.  They are very different.  The phases of the moon are completely different.  The moon doesn't give her light in Matt. 24, but we see a blood moon when the 6th seal is opened.  When the moon isn't seen or does not give it's light, this phase is known as a new moon, but a blood moon is a full lunar eclipse, which would come two weeks later.

Also, the tribes of the earth are not mentioned with the 6th seal, like they are in Matt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7.  Instead, we find the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the chief captains and the mighty men, every bond man and free man hid themselves in the dens and rocks of the mountains, crying out for the mountains to fall on them and to hide them from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. The rapture has already passed at this point, but when these men see the blood moon, then they will know it's the sign for the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31/Acts 2:20). 

This also tells me that the tribes of the earth, are the remnant and the scattered tribes of Israel, who are finally mourning for the one they have pierced when they see the sign of the Son of man appear and those who are ready gathered in the clouds to meet Him in the air (rapture).  Then they will lift up their heads and know that their redemption draws near.  I should also note, that once the first sliver of the new moon appears, this is the signal for the feast of trumpets to begin.  And I believe that is the phase the moon will be in, just before He descends in the clouds and then sends His angels to gather His elect Matt. 24:30-31.

Matt. 24:30-31 corresponds with 1 Thes. 4:16-17.  Each reveals the sounding of a trumpet, Christ coming in the clouds, and a meeting or gathering.

 

 

 

Cheers

[Watching for Jesus]

Hi Rollin THUNDER

 

Are you saying that these events are not the same?

 

Revelation 6:12.  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
 13.  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14.  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

Matthew 24:29.  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

Mark 13:24.  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
 25.  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

 

Are the stars going to fall more than once?

 

Jeff

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hi Rollin THUNDER

 

Are you saying that these events are not the same?

 

Revelation 6:12.  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 13.  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14.  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

Matthew 24:29.  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

Mark 13:24.  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

 25.  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

 

Are the stars going to fall more than once?

 

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Yes, these are different times as seen in the phases of the moon, but the stars falling is just meteor showers.

Cheers

[WilliamL]

 

 

A common misconception. Notice that the martyrs of the 5th Seal are given white robes, whereas the great multitude have "washed their robes and made them white." Rev. 7:14 Big difference, unless you believe that the martyrs were given dirty white robes that still needed cleaning!

 

These two groups are entirely different people. rollinThunder has it right: the Rev. 7 saints

 

 

...are the righteous dead and Christ's faithful servants who will be ready when the Son of man appears. It's the resurrection/rapture.

 

Martyrdom for the name of Jesus is such a noble act that God accounts all of ones sins cleansed by the righteousness of the act. In contrast, "washing one's robes" indicates an active repentance from our sins; because robes/garments signify one's works:

 

Rev. 19:8 And to her [the Bride of Christ] it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

 

 

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying here.  Those of the fifth seal are clearly martyrs.  Whether they are from the early stages of the great tribulation or from down through the centuries doesn't matter.  They are described as being slain for the word of God and the testimony they held.  We know the great tribulation will be a time of martyrdom.  This is where the Rev 7 group comes from.

 

I'm not sure why you're making a distinction between martyrs who were given a robe and martyrs who washed their robes.  They all held to the testimony of Jesus unto death.  Who is to say that the robes that were given to the martyrs weren't the ones they had previously washed by their being martyred?

 

"Those of the fifth seal are clearly martyrs."   --True. No disagreement here.

 

"This is where the Rev 7 group comes from."  --False. There is absolutely no scriptural evidence to support this statement.

 

"I'm not sure why you're making a distinction between martyrs who were given a robe and martyrs who washed their robes.  They all held to the testimony of Jesus unto death."  --False. There is no witness that the saints in Rev. 7 who washed their robes have been martyred.

[WilliamL]

 

 

“... the great day of His wrath came [and continues: aorist verb tense], and who is able to stand?”

 

This verse reveals that the wrath begins after the opening of the 6th Seal. So we can see that the Lord has already come for his Church by this time. Verse 16 tells us that the people of earth say,

 

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

 

-- which means that they have seen them!

 

When does everyone see Jesus?

 

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

 

And this is what we see 6:16-17, after the 6th Seal is opened: the peoples of earth are wailing because they have seen the coming of Christ and have recognized him. They are wailing because they had reviled and rejected him, and are now greatly afraid of the consequences.

 

 

I agree that the sixth seal indicates that the time for God's wrath has come.  This is seen in the seventh seal where the seven plague angels begin to sound the trumpets.

 

I'm not sure why you think the resurrection takes place at or before the sixth seal though.  There are numerous passages saying that the resurrection takes place on the last day.  What do you see as the last day?

 

I don't find anything in the sixth seal to indicate that the people of earth see Christ.  What they see first is the sign of the son of Man as described in the first part of Matthew 24:30.  This is the sixth seal where the sky is rolled back and people see the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb, the same scene as is pictured in Rev 5.  They don't actually see the Son of Man at the sixth seal.  It's not until the seventh trumpet / bowl, the latter part of Matthew 24:30, that they actually see the Son of Man.

 

God has not appointed us to wrath... 1 Thes. 5:9

Christ's elect are removed before the time of the wrath (but not before the Trib, which is different from the wrath of God); which wrath begins after the 6th Seal is opened.

 

"I don't find anything in the sixth seal to indicate that the people of earth see Christ." True. What you do see in Rev. 6:16 is that people have seen God and the Lamb.

 

Understand, not even John was allowed to see the Rapture, because no one is allowed to see it before it happens. (If someone tells you that he has seen it in a vision or dream, he is a liar.) John saw the heavenly signs that immediately precede the Rapture, then the un-Raptured peoples of the earth wailing after the Rapture took place. The Rapture takes place in between these two events, but John wasn't allowed to see it. Comprehende?

[WilliamL]

...You claim John does say when they got there, so when is it, in the midst of, or through the great tribulation? These would not be the same time if those days are shortened for the sake of the elect. Obviously the martyrs are not the elect that will be ready. And this is why I say the rapture occurs before the 5th seal is opened.

 

 

Matt. 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."  This is the time of the 5th Seal, the martyrdom of the saints during, not after, the Great Tribulation.

 

 

 

"The resurrection/rapture has nothing to do with the seals, but it occurs before God's wrath."

 

Disagree. Rev. 6:17 tells us,

 

“... the great day of His wrath came [and continues: aorist verb tense], and who is able to stand?”

 

This verse reveals that the wrath begins after the opening of the 6th Seal. So we can see that the Lord has already come for his Church by this time. Verse 16 tells us that the people of earth say,

 

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

 

-- which means that they have seen them!

 

When does everyone see Jesus?

 

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

 

And this is what we see 6:16-17, after the 6th Seal is opened: the peoples of earth are wailing because they have seen the coming of Christ and have recognized him. They are wailing because they had reviled and rejected him, and are now greatly afraid of the consequences.

 

 

The sun, moon and stars appear to be the same in Matt. 24 and the 6th seal, but they are not.  They are very different.  The phases of the moon are completely different.  The moon doesn't give her light in Matt. 24, but we see a blood moon when the 6th seal is opened.  When the moon isn't seen or does not give it's light, this phase is known as a new moon, but a blood moon is a full lunar eclipse, which would come two weeks later.

 

Disagree. The phases of the moon have nothing to do with it. Just because Rev. 6 doesn't use the exact same terms as Matt. 24 does not mean they speak of two different events.

 

Also, the tribes of the earth are not mentioned with the 6th seal, like they are in Matt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7.  Instead, we find the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the chief captains and the mighty men, every bond man and free man hid themselves in the dens and rocks of the mountains, crying out for the mountains to fall on them and to hide them from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. The rapture has already passed at this point, but when these men see the blood moon, then they will know it's the sign for the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31/Acts 2:20). 

 

This also tells me that the tribes of the earth, are the remnant and the scattered tribes of Israel, who are finally mourning for the one they have pierced when they see the sign of the Son of man appear and those who are ready gathered in the clouds to meet Him in the air (rapture).  Then they will lift up their heads and know that their redemption draws near.  I should also note, that once the first sliver of the new moon appears, this is the signal for the feast of trumpets to begin.  And I believe that is the phase the moon will be in, just before He descends in the clouds and then sends His angels to gather His elect Matt. 24:30-31.

 

Matt. 24:30-31 corresponds with 1 Thes. 4:16-17.  Each reveals the sounding of a trumpet, Christ coming in the clouds, and a meeting or gathering.

I hope my understanding about these these things were adequately explained above in my posts to Last Daze. Trying to keep it short as possible.

 

Re: your words to Watching for Jesus: "Yes, these are different times as seen in the phases of the moon, but the stars falling is just meteor showers."  I disagree. Falling stars don't swirl as they fall, like figs falling from a wind-blown tree do. This is a pole reversal, wherein nighttime stars will appear to swirl as they fall, because the earth is rotating while it is turning over.

Edited February 3, 2015 by WilliamL

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

A common misconception. Notice that the martyrs of the 5th Seal are given white robes, whereas the great multitude have "washed their robes and made them white." Rev. 7:14 Big difference, unless you believe that the martyrs were given dirty white robes that still needed cleaning!

 

These two groups are entirely different people. rollinThunder has it right: the Rev. 7 saints

 

 

...are the righteous dead and Christ's faithful servants who will be ready when the Son of man appears. It's the resurrection/rapture.

 

Martyrdom for the name of Jesus is such a noble act that God accounts all of ones sins cleansed by the righteousness of the act. In contrast, "washing one's robes" indicates an active repentance from our sins; because robes/garments signify one's works:

 

Rev. 19:8 And to her [the Bride of Christ] it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

 

 

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying here.  Those of the fifth seal are clearly martyrs.  Whether they are from the early stages of the great tribulation or from down through the centuries doesn't matter.  They are described as being slain for the word of God and the testimony they held.  We know the great tribulation will be a time of martyrdom.  This is where the Rev 7 group comes from.

 

I'm not sure why you're making a distinction between martyrs who were given a robe and martyrs who washed their robes.  They all held to the testimony of Jesus unto death.  Who is to say that the robes that were given to the martyrs weren't the ones they had previously washed by their being martyred?

 

"Those of the fifth seal are clearly martyrs."   --True. No disagreement here.

 

"This is where the Rev 7 group comes from."  --False. There is absolutely no scriptural evidence to support this statement.

 

"I'm not sure why you're making a distinction between martyrs who were given a robe and martyrs who washed their robes.  They all held to the testimony of Jesus unto death."  --False. There is no witness that the saints in Rev. 7 who washed their robes have been martyred.

 

 

I think that there absolutely is scriptural evidence that the multitude beyond number in Rev 7 are those martyred in the great tribulation.  Consider these verses:

 

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;  Daniel 7:21

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.  Revelation 13:7

for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.  Matthew 24:21-22

 

Look at the multitude in Rev 7:

 

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb... Rev 7:9

 

I'm not sure how you come to any other conclusion than the multitude in Rev 7 are martyrs.  It's plainly stated that the false prophet overcomes (kills) the saints, the same ones described in Rev 7.  Jesus states that the great tribulation will be a time of persecution worse than any other time in history.  He also indicates that the ferocity of the great tribulation is such that if it wasn't cut short, none would survive it.  Saying that a great multitude beyond number was able to evade the false prophet until the sixth seal then be raptured is simply contrary to what the Bible says; especially since the resurrection-rapture happens on the last day, the day of the Lord.

 

Can you explain how so many people evaded the false prophet contrary to scripture?  AND

Can you explain how the sixth seal is the last day, the day of the Lord?

 

If not, then I'll stick to the multitude in Rev 7 being those martyred in the great tribulation.