Rev. 7's great multitude before the throne

[Ezra]

Ezra,

I too find it difficult to place the rapture in the Day of the Lord, especially at the end. I can see why some believe that because scripture can be tricky to figure out, but I'm feeling pretty safe to put my two dollars on a pre Day of the Lord rapture.

I wonder how much my return will be on my two dollar wager? Ha

Spock out

Spock,

 

Your return should be at least 100% if not 700%!  Also your comment below is exactly how I would put it:

 

Well, for starters, the passage does not say the body of Christ is standing around the throne. All it says is 24 elders are standing around the throne. This has been interpreted in several ways, so I guess we get to pick which one suffices the most.

Spock and Marilyn,

 

To suggest that the 24 elders "represent" the Church, when there is already "a GREAT MULTITUDE" which no man can number, is a little difficult to reconcile.  And the above conclusion is arrived at because most Christians automatically interpret "came out of great tribulation" (Rev 7:14) as if these are Tribulation Saints (which, in any event, could NOT be a great multitude which no man can number, because the circumstances would not allow that).

 

If the words had been "escaped out of great tribulation" no one would have a problem (other than mid- and post-Tribulationists).  But that is exactly what Scripture reveals (1 Thess 5:9; Rev 3:10).  The same word -- erchomai -- modified to exerchomai is used in Rev 18:4 for coming out of Babylon in order to escape her judgments: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[Last Daze]

 

 

Getting back to basics here-

When do we believe the "Great tribulation" begins?

Show me in the scriptures also if you don't mind. Thanks.

 

Based on what I read in Matthew 24 the great tribulation begins shortly after the abomination of desolation is set up and ends with the sixth seal.

 

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), ........ For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:15,21

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,......"  Matthew 24:29:30

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  Revelation 6:12-14

 

Notice that it is the sign of the Son of Man that is first seen in Matthew 24:30.  What appeared in the sky, that sign, is evidenced by what the people say when the sixth seal is opened.

 

.......“Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:16

 

At the sixth seal, the sky is split apart revealing the scene we see (at least in part) in Revelation 5, i.e. He who sits on the throne and the Lamb.  The great tribulation is over...the great day of their wrath has come.  The Son of Man is not seen until later (seventh trumpet as I see it).

 

At least that's how I see it and why.

Thanks Daze. By the way, I like your manner of presenting your case. Very friendly and respectful.

Now, here is a thought or two I would like your feedback on:

1. I agree 100 % when the GT begins- immediately after the abomination. I suppose it will be very very disturbing to be living here, especially if you don't take the mark of the beast, with God blasting his wrath.

2. Now, your answer as to when it ends has me perplexed, although I can see the basis for you saying this- Matthew 24:29-31. However, in that passage the word GREAT is not there. It just says after the tribulation or in many translations, distress. So, is it possible this passage is talking about when the tribulation (distress) ends, which many believe are the seals, up to the 6th seal?

You see, I can see Matt 25:29-31 as being a rapture passage. So, immediately after seals 1-5 (the distress, not the GT), while in the 6th seal, the sign of the son of man will appear and poof, up go the true church.

What do you think? Where do you think this thinking may be flawed?

Thanks,

Spock

 

 

Thanks Spock,

 

Pleasant discussions are always the most profitable.  I like to think that we're "in this together" and not adversaries.

 

1.  As I see it, those who refuse to worship the image of the beast (receiving the mark is part of that) will be put to death (fifth seal).  This is before the seven trumpet judgments commence, beginning at the seventh seal, so I don't see God's wrath being blasted at that point.

 

2.  It may not say the word "great" but it does say "of those days" which to me is a reference back to what He had just talked about and called "great".  If it's not a reference back to the days of the great tribulation, which days does the phrase "of those days" refer to?

 

But immediately after the tribulation of those days.....  Matthew 24:29

 

I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being divided to represent two different events largely because two different things are seen by the people and there were some timing issues....

 

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

The part in orange pertains to the sixth seal.  The part in blue pertains to the seventh trumpet, beginning the day of the Lord with the resurrection-rapture.  People see the sign of the Son of Man, then later they see the Son of Man.  I used to be of a sixth seal rapture persuasion, however, the case for the resurrection-rapture happening on the day of the Lord, the last day, seventh trumpet was to me so straightforward that I had to adjust.

 

I think our perspectives are being based on our view of the chronology of Revelation.  I see the seventh trumpet as being when Christ begins His 1000 year governing of the earth according to these verses:

 

but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:7

 

And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables.  Mark 4:11

 

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying,“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  Revelation 11:15-18

 

As I see it, God's wrath has finished and there is nothing left after the seventh trumpet (then later that day, the seventh bowl), the day of the Lord, except for Christ to reign for 1000 years.  Based on that I see Revelation 12-19 as providing additional detail for the framework of the seven seals / trumpets.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Just saying, I agree with you, (except the timing of the rapture.) However it is good to see a clear explanation of the details. Good work.

 

Marilyn.

[Spock]

Hey Daze,

I recently found this article and have been mulling it over a lot of late. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts regarding it. It's sort of long, so you may want to read it when you are not rushed. I admire your analytical skills, so I think this may be right up your alley. (Btw, anyone else is welcome too, not just limited to Daze. We are just having this conversation.)

http://www.redmoonrising.com/enterapocalypse.htm

No problem if you don't want to read it. It is long.

Spock out

[Last Daze]

Hey Daze,

I recently found this article and have been mulling it over a lot of late. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts regarding it. It's sort of long, so you may want to read it when you are not rushed. I admire your analytical skills, so I think this may be right up your alley. (Btw, anyone else is welcome too, not just limited to Daze. We are just having this conversation.)

http://www.redmoonrising.com/enterapocalypse.htm

No problem if you don't want to read it. It is long.

Spock out

 

Hey Spock.  Thanks for the compliment....especially coming from someone named Spock.  I glanced at that article and it is quite a lengthy one.  Is there a particular aspect of it that you want me to focus on or just thoughts in general?  I don't want to hijack this thread beyond recognition and I do want to read the article so I'll probably send you a PM.

[Spock]

Hey Daze,

I recently found this article and have been mulling it over a lot of late. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts regarding it. It's sort of long, so you may want to read it when you are not rushed. I admire your analytical skills, so I think this may be right up your alley. (Btw, anyone else is welcome too, not just limited to Daze. We are just having this conversation.)http://www.redmoonrising.com/enterapocalypse.htm

No problem if you don't want to read it. It is long.

Spock out

 

Hey Spock.  Thanks for the compliment....especially coming from someone named Spock.  I glanced at that article and it is quite a lengthy one.  Is there a particular aspect of it that you want me to focus on or just thoughts in general?  I don't want to hijack this thread beyond recognition and I do want to read the article so I'll probably send you a PM.

I've read that article a couple of times and am reading it again much slower the third time. This time I am taking notes and going back into the scriptures to compare and check his research. I guess I was hoping someone else would do this WITH me and then we can compare notes.

Like I said, it is lengthy but if and when you find the time, I think you will be blessed with his study. Whenever you want to discuss, however you want to discuss is all fine by me. I'm flexible.

Shalom,

Spock

[Last Daze]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Just saying, I agree with you, (except the timing of the rapture.) However it is good to see a clear explanation of the details. Good work.

 

Marilyn.

 

Hi Marilyn,

 

Thanks.  I agree.  I feel that there will always be differences, and that we shouldn't focus on forcing our viewpoints, just presenting the rationale for them, and letting the Holy Spirit do His job.  That's my goal anyway.  Sometimes I get caught up in the debate though.

 

Blessings.

[WilliamL]

 

 

True, these are different groups. Rev.4:4 shows 24 elders; Rev. 7 shows a great multitude. Now, which number is more likely the number of those that will be raptured?

 

... The number isn`t the criteria but what God has promised & His description of the groups. Christ promised the overcomers in the Body of Christ that they  would sit with Him on His throne & be kings & priests. Thus we see a representative (24 elders - 24 (2 x 12) being highest ruling position) on thrones with crowns around the throne. They sing a new song, saying that they were redeemed out of every tribe & nation etc. (Rev. 5: 9)

 

Then we see the other group also out of every tribe & nation, without crowns & not made kings & priests, & have come out of the great tribulation.

 

`They shall neither hunger any more nor thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor the heat.` (Rev. 7: 16)

 

This is part of God`s description of this great multitude. And that is obviously what they endured through the great tribulation.

 

Yowza, did this string explode over the last few days.

OK, Marilyn, the key word here is overcomers. These are the elect of the elect. Not everyone raptured will be able to "rule them [all nations] with a rod of iron," 2:26-27, that is be kings, or there would be more kings ruling than there are members of the nations that survive the Wrath of God!

 

Those "overcomers" -- the Greek root means victors, conquerors, same word used to describe the 1st Seal's White Horse's rider -- who are granted to "sit with me [Jesus] on my throne, even as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne," 3:21, are of a much higher level in God's Kingdom than others; for example, saints whose 'work is burned, and suffer loss, but themselves saved so as by fire." 1 Cor. 3:15 These are definitely not of the level of conquerors, yet shall still be saved because of their faith. They are the ones of the type standing before the throne in Rev. 7, not sitting around it, as the elders of Rev. 4. Those standing have to "wash their robes" first, that is, repent and divest their past works (garments = works, 19:8) of any and all filthiness. Esther and the other virgins undergoing the 12 months of purification before being able to stand in the presence of the king was an archetypal portrayal of what most raptured saints will experience.

 

Please check out my article "Job Openings in the Kingdom Age" here: http://www.ourchurch.com/member/d/dummies/index.php?p=1_5_Kingdom-Job-Openings

It explains in brief the many different levels of authority in the coming Kingdom of God, just like there are in any kingdom.

[WilliamL]

 

The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of the Devil, not the Wrath of God. You have not provided any scripture that says otherwise, nor can you. Neither can you provide any scripture for the length of time of the GT. No scripture says that it lasts for 7 years/times, or any other length.

I could provide a whole raft of Scriptures, but since you are evidently not familiar with Daniel's 70th week, and how it ties in with the book of Revelation, or the prophecies concerning the Day of the LORD, or "the time of Jacob's trouble",  it will not be profitable at this time. 

 

I am very familiar with Daniel's 70th week, having studied it for over 40 years. I know your theory of its interpretation for the End Times. What I am saying is that your theory has never been, and never can be, substantiated by two or three scriptural witnesses that speak of a 7-year Great Tribulation. If you or others had the scriptural evidence you would be flaunting it, but none of you can, because it doesn't exist.

 

Suffice it to say that the Daniel's 70th week is divided into two segments of 3 1/2 years.  The first half consists of Satanic Deception + Satanic Attacks against Tribulation Saints + God's Wrathful Judgments. 

 

Pure unsubstantiated speculation.

 

The second half is the result of the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation and is the Great Tribulation = the Day of the Lord = God's Wrath in its final phase (and Jesus said that because of the elect those days would be shortened, which then would be reduced to about 6 1/2 years). 

 

 

Pure unsubstantiated speculation.

[WilliamL]

... I need to make you realise that there are only 7 angels who deliver God's wrath.  One angel after another until the 7th, ....and not 7 angels here, and then another 7 angels after, because that would be 14 angels.  No where does it mention 14 angels, it only says there are seven angels..

 

Here is the key.

 

Revelation 10:7   But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

How does an angel sound?

Does he yell or scream?

 

Revelation 8:6   And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

 

 

By the time the 7th angel has blown the trumpet (sounded), it is finished.  Done.  There are no more angels to come.  The job is completed, and Babylon fully destroyed. (the system of Babylon gone).

 

No, all is not finished, only "the mystery of God should be finished as he evangelized ("good news-ed") to his servants the prophets."

 

The Two Witnesses give this final evangelism message to the world, they are killed, the 7th angel blows his trumpet, and this phase of God's plan of ages is complete. But the Beast and the rebels of the nations must yet be destroyed.