If it's biblical it's true, yes?

[Qnts2]

Hi,

 

I am a bit confused, maybe you can help me.

 

I thought Romans was being addressed to the saints?

In the passage of Romans it definitely does say we are circumcised of the heart, we are grafted in but we are grafted in to the Lord, who is a jew.

So how can we not be jews? 

I know this is a dispute over the law but it clearly does say we gentiles do becomes jews and I have always believed that. I do not practice Jewish customs but I still identify with them because Jesus is the King of the Jews. 

Can you please tell me how this is wrong because even when I read your responses so far it seems confusing what you are saying. 

Thanks a lot

-Will

 

OT prohesy gives the linage of the Messiah. He would be a child of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah,  and David. The OT also prophesied that the Gentiles would come to the Messiah.

 

As far as the Olive tree, the natural branches are Jewish, and the branches from the wild olive tree are Gentile which are grafted in among the natural branches. The wild branches do not become natural branches, but remain wild branches. 

 

A Jew, is a descendent of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob was renamed Israel. Gentile Christians are grafted into Abraham, not Jacob/Israel. So, Christians are not children of Jacob/Israel. Gentiles means 'not Jewish', and in the OT as well as the NT, Gentiles 'not Jewish', remain Gentiles 'not Jewish'.  (Jewish believers are also grafted into Abraham and receive the Messianic promises by faith, like Abraham).

 

Jesus is a natural Jew, by linage. Those who accepted Jesus become sons of God, by the indwelling Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of adoption. Jewish people are born Jewish, but they are not born with the Spirit of Adoption which is the mark of a believer in Jesus. So being Jewish does not mean a person is saved, and being Gentile does not make a person Jewish. Jewish is a physical linage. Being a Christian is a Spiritual rebirth. Or maybe saying, being a Christian grafts a person into God's family, making a person a son of God. Being a Christian does not graft the person into a physical linage from Jacob.  

 

This discussion is not a dispute over the law of Moses. It is a dispute over what one receives as promises from God, and what one becomes when they are born again. The Jewish people received many promises from God which are all physical, but unless saved/born again, a Jewish person does not receive the promises coming from the Messiah, such as salvation. 

 

Romans was written to Gentiles believers and Jewish believers, due to a rift which developed between Jewish and Gentile believers. To help resolve the issue, Paul speaks alternately to Jewish believers and Gentile believers. Much of the book of Romans is explaining to Gentile believers the status of unsaved Jews, the future for unsaved Jews, the place of believing Gentiles, and the place of believing Jews. All to explain some confusion among Gentile believers about the status of the Jewish people.

 

Scripture never says that Gentiles become Jews. Much of the confusion comes from statements about unsaved vs saved Jews when it is being shown the just being Jewish doesn't mean a person is saved. When the scripture says not all Jews will receive the promise to Israel concernig the Messiah, it does not mean that Gentiles who do believe become Jews/Israel. It never says Gentiles become Israel, just that not all Jews will receive the promises concerning the Messiah (because only a remnant of Jews accept the Messiah and receive the promises).

[Will M]

Hi,

You have confused me more. Thanks anyhow. 

 

I think the point that you say wild branches are grafted in. You seem to be missing or at least it seems they are grafted in to the original and natural tree, they become part of it, therefore though they once were wild now they are joined and produce based on the connection to the tree. Who is Jesus , It does in fact say we are jews you are looking at scripture pointed out and saying it doesn't say that. That is very confusing in itself

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

-Will

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Will,

 

The wild branches are grafted into the wild tree, but that does not change the fact that they are still wild branches.   Gentile do not become Jews.  If Gentiles become Jews it defeats the whole idea that the kingdom of God is made up of very tribe and tongue.   It defeats the whole point that Gentiles are included in the Kingdom as Gentiles.   Paul continues to differentiate between natural and wild branches in the olive tree metaphor. 

 

I would also point out that the term "Jew"  is never spiritualized to refer to Gentile believers anywhere in the NT.  Neither is the term, "Israel."   Every use of either "Jew" or "Israel" is always ethnic and always refers to the natural descendants of Jacob.

[Will M]

Hi Shilo,

 

o.k. thank you. I still am not sure how there is a distinction, it seems very confusing. but I appreciate your explaining

God bless you

-Will

[Guest shiloh357]

Paul is using an agricultural metaphor.   Grafting doesn't change the nature or the physical properties of the branch.  The branch simply draws off of the root (since that's where the grafting occurs) and bears the fruit of the natural tree.  Getting saved doesn't change who we are.  Gentiles stay Gentiles and Jews remain Jews.

 

If Gentiles become Jews in Christ, it implies that there is something inferior and sinful about being a Gentile. 

[JohnD]

Hmbld and Will,

 

Naysayers cannot refute Spirit Israel / Spirit Jew. 

 

They can only attack the messenger (me), or try to insult me or try to create arguments that [sound] legit but are not.

 

Shiloh says for example the Bible never uses the term spirit jew. Even after I repeatedly posted the following verses:

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

The distinction between being physically Jewish and spiritually Jewish goes as far back as...

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

Which is the only way this verse makes any sense...

 

Romans 9:6 (KJV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

[JohnD]

Understand. A Gentile born believer is a Spirit Jew only. Not a physical Jew. Obviously a physical Jew can become a Spirit Jew. But in the spiritual (that is the faith in the Jewish Messiah) we are spiritually equal:

 

Galatians 3:28 (KJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

And we are the spiritual circumcision / circumcission of the heart...

 

Philippians 3:1-3 (KJV)
1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

But we (Gentile born believers) are not physical Jews. Only those born of Abraham Isaac and Jacob are.

 

They are still the only chosen and elect... of THIS world.

 

Believers in Jesus are the only chosen and elect of the COMING world / kingdom / heaven.

 

Galatians 4:22-26 (KJV)
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

[hmbld]

Hmbld and Will,

 

Naysayers cannot refute Spirit Israel / Spirit Jew. 

 

They can only attack the messenger (me), or try to insult me or try to create arguments that [sound] legit but are not.

 

 

I do not see anyone attacking you, and i am aware you keep pushing this same concept repeatedly.  I do not agree 

[Guest]

Okay. The Church is grafted into Israel.

 

Which one? Physical

 

or Spirit?

 

~

 

One

 

a bruised reed he will not break, 

 

and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; Matthew 12:29 (ESV)

 

Plus One

 

and in his name the Gentiles will hope.” Matthew 12:21 (ESV)

 

Equals One New Humanity

 

by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.

 

His purpose was to create in himself

 

one new humanity out of the two,

 

thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15 (NIV)

 

Yes?

 

For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end.

 

Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. 1 Peter 1:23 (NLT)

[JohnD]

 

Hmbld and Will,

 

Naysayers cannot refute Spirit Israel / Spirit Jew. 

 

They can only attack the messenger (me), or try to insult me or try to create arguments that [sound] legit but are not.

 

 

I do not see anyone attacking you, and i am aware you keep pushing this same concept repeatedly.  I do not agree 

 

 

"You are unskilled with the Word of God..." not an attack?

 

Hmmm

 

I was not referring to just this thread.

 

Setting that aside.

 

You do not agree.

 

Why?

 

Do you have a biblical reason or a tradition of man reason?