Ezra Posted March 13, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 13, 2015 ya know, if you'd have asked me this a couple of months ago, i'd have said no. now i think i'd have to say if God wants to shut that door to an unbeliever, let Him shut it, not man. It is not a question of who should "shut the door". By definition Christian worship is for Christian believers. Unbelievers can and should attend and observe, but until and unless a person makes a clear public profession of faith, is baptized as a believer, and is brought into fellowship, they have shut themselves out. For Scriptural support see Acts 2:37-47. Furthermore there cannot be an unequal yoke with unbelievers in spiritual matters, as is clear from other Scriptures. We should remember how and why the Temple was constructed as it was. There is a lesson for us right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted March 13, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 13, 2015 Is it good to make the church more seeker friendly? You are having worship. Should an unbeliever be part of the leadership (worship team) worshiping the Lord? The Lord regulated outer court for gentiles and inner court for believers in the temple. Taking that to church, gentiles can be present in the audience but believers part of leading the church in worship. Exactly. Sadly worship has lost its meaning generally and you can substitute the word "entertainment". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted March 13, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,798 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 11,244 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 I don't like this topic. The reason why is how do you go about deciding who is and who is not saved? And since when is church only for those who believe? God can use all kinds of people. Even the unsaved. With that said the question I would ask is any harm being caused by this person? Are they leading people to God or away from God? That would be what matters. Someone who says I dont believe in God or Jesus but Im here because my wife is here or my dad forces me here .... you can be pretty sure he isnt saved. The harm is in letting an unbeliever be part of the ministry team responsible for worshiping the Lord. For bringing the profane to the altar. Church is a place to build up the body before the Lord, not a place to be seeker sensitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheya joie Posted March 13, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 351 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 13, 2015 Lo these many years ago, I attended a Christian concert where things seemed kinda off. Then the lead singer dismissed the band and just sang, and it was so much better! I later learned that the singer was experimenting with an unsaved back-up band. It just didn't work, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted March 13, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Would not happen in my church. Our worship leaders and other worship team members are all longstanding members of our church. Even a new, saved, member who has just started attending our church would not be invited to play or sing (they would be invited to the practice and jamming sessions that occasionally happen), but in a service nope, not until we knew them better. I guess we are just blessed to have a large group of talented members in our church. We have four guitar players, a bass player, two keyboard players, two drummers, a saxiphonist, a violinist and three or four vocalists (my wife being one). We have three sound guys (I am learning), and I am basically the AV assistant running easyworship etc on the PC. So we are usually covered for a service... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 An unbeliever cannot lead in worship. How could they? Our worship is based on our stated faith in God. How can an unbeliever who is in a place in their life where they are consciously rejecting Jesus, praise Him and what would they praise Him for?? It makes no sense. An unbeliever has rejected the offer of salvation, thus they have rejected God's sovereignty, His grace, mercy, the work of Jesus on the cross... Those are the reasons we worship and praise God. How can a person who has rejected Jesus praise the Lord or lead others to praise God for the very things they don't have??? Worship is not performance. Leading in worship is a ministry and the person leading in worship needs to be someone with that anointing. They are not there to perform, but are called of God as a minstrel to lead others in their worship. Putting an unregnerate sinner in charge of worship is like Nabab and Abihu who displeased the Lord by bringing a strange fire into the house of the Lord. Churches have really lowered the bar when it comes to what worship is. Good worship will be filled with good theology. So many today turn their noses up at the old hymns, but those old hymns talk about the blood of Jesus, the wonder of the cross, God's presence, his holiness, mercy, grace, faithfulness, and his glory. They magnify God's attributes. They teach us about redemption, the great price that was paid. There are some modern songs that do that, but there is a lot of "worship" that leaves much to be desired. Unbelievers can't sing about those things and should not be up on stage leading others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted March 13, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,798 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 11,244 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 I wish I could give you extra points shiloh. That states my view, a bit more eloquently than I could have done. I think some Christians have forgotten the meaning of worship. It is something impressed on me lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I agree Jade, so many have forgotten. A couple of other things I would point out is that the worship team's job is not to worship God while we look on like we are at a music concert. They are there to assist the rest of us in worship. They are there to, with the Holy Spirit's guidance, direct our worship. That's why unbelievers can't lead. Also, the biblical pattern in the Old Testament was that the worship was lead by the priests, hence by a redeemed community leading the other members of the redeemed community in praise to God. I would recommend a study out of I and II Chronicles about how worship was done in the days of Kings David and Solomon. It is instructive for us as a royal priesthood to see the principles of worship given in Scripture and to see just how God wants to be approached. Too often we forget that when we assemble to worship, it is not about us, or our personal taste in music. We are coming before our most dread Sovereign. He is not our "buddy" or our "lover." He is our King and our Creator and it would behoove us to get a clear revelation of to whom it is we are speaking. Worship leaders need to be theologically sound; they need to know the Bible and they need to be people who demonstrate a heart for God. It's just talent, but it is a anointing that needs to be present. 70% of the theology you get in church will be through the music. The preaching is not the main source of theology for the average believer. So worship MUST be biblical. All a sinner can do is mouth some words. But true worship is scripture-based and anointed and Spirit led. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippie333 Posted March 14, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,236 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 673 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/24/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/18/1970 Share Posted March 14, 2015 An unbeliever cannot lead in worship. How could they? Our worship is based on our stated faith in God. How can an unbeliever who is in a place in their life where they are consciously rejecting Jesus, praise Him and what would they praise Him for?? It makes no sense. An unbeliever has rejected the offer of salvation, thus they have rejected God's sovereignty, His grace, mercy, the work of Jesus on the cross... Those are the reasons we worship and praise God. How can a person who has rejected Jesus praise the Lord or lead others to praise God for the very things they don't have??? Worship is not performance. Leading in worship is a ministry and the person leading in worship needs to be someone with that anointing. They are not there to perform, but are called of God as a minstrel to lead others in their worship. Putting an unregnerate sinner in charge of worship is like Nabab and Abihu who displeased the Lord by bringing a strange fire into the house of the Lord. Churches have really lowered the bar when it comes to what worship is. Good worship will be filled with good theology. So many today turn their noses up at the old hymns, but those old hymns talk about the blood of Jesus, the wonder of the cross, God's presence, his holiness, mercy, grace, faithfulness, and his glory. They magnify God's attributes. They teach us about redemption, the great price that was paid. There are some modern songs that do that, but there is a lot of "worship" that leaves much to be desired. Unbelievers can't sing about those things and should not be up on stage leading others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 14, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 14, 2015 I'm with you on this Jade the unbelievers that come into church cannot and never should be allowed to set the tone for the members of Christ body because they are not His body. The unbelievers need to know outright and forthright there is a difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness and they much choose and make a decision to accept Christ or stay in their sins. Light and darkness don't mix and Christ's body should have no fellowship the church should never in any capacity or role whatsoever allow the darkness to lead. I am not saying that unbelievers cannot be allowed in the church that would be foolish. But I am saying that if the church "allows" the darkness to lead then into darkness they will be lead even in things that may seem harmless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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