Once Saved always Saved?

[st. Worm]

horizon quote:

No

[st. Worm]

horizoneast:

Worm, start a new thread and we can discuss your interesting

[Shelak]

Hello all in this discussion,

This is so timely for me, my mother and I are having this discussion right now. She has been a member of the Chrsitian Church for all her life, I was raised in it too, then in 1974 I recieved Jesus as my personal Savior. This "getting saved" took me out of the doctrines of the Christian Church and into the once saved always saved doctrine. Course, I didnt know it then.

So like another person in this discussion I was being "tossed to and fro from doctrine to doctrine", and was really uncertain what I believed.

After a few years of fervent study of the scriptures I decided to let the Lord be the one who holds my salvation in His Mighty Hand. I use the verse of 2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

So to settle this in my own mind I do not dwell on my ability to keep my salvation, but rather His, the Lord Jesus' ability to keep my salvation (wow, what security) in Him by His awesome power.

Secure at last ... Shelak

Edited June 8, 2006 by Shelak

[Mark777]

Shelak,

Amen! Great verse.

Mark777

[Mark777]

Concerning Christian Liberty

by Martin Luther (1520)

Translation by R. S. Grignon

1. The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli;

Utopia by Sir Thomas More;

Ninety-Five Theses; Address to the German Nobility; Concerning Christian Liberty by Martin Luther,

With Introductions and Notes.

The Five-Foot Shelf of Books, "The Harvard Classics",

Volume 36

(New York: P. F. Collier & Son, 1910)

Pages 353-397.

Conclusion of the Treatise

And now let us turn to the other part: to the outward man. Here we shall give an answer to all those who, taking offence at the word of faith and at what I have asserted, say, "If faith does everything, and by itself suffices for justification, why then are good works commanded? Are we then to take our ease and do no works, content with faith?" Not so, impious men, I reply; not so. That would indeed really be the case, if we were thoroughly and completely inner and spiritual persons; but that will not happen until the last day, when the dead shall be raised. As long as we live in the flesh, we are but beginning and making advances in that which shall be completed in a future life. On this account the Apostle calls that which we have in this life the firstfruits of the Spirit (Rom. viii. 23). In future we shall have the tenths, and the fullness of the Spirit. To this part belongs the fact I have stated before: that the Christian is the servant of all and subject to all. For in that part in which he is free he does no works, but in that in which he is a servant he does all works. Let us see on what principle this is so.

Although, as I have said, inwardly, and according to the spirit, a man is amply enough justified by faith, having all that he requires to have, except that this very faith and abundance ought to increase from day to day, even till the future life, still he remains in this mortal life upon earth, in which it is necessary that he should rule his own body and have intercourse with men. Here then works begin; here he must not take his ease; here he must give heed to exercise his body by fastings, watchings, labour, and other regular discipline, so that it may be subdued to the spirit, and obey and conform itself to the inner man and faith, and not rebel against them nor hinder them, as is its nature to do if it is not kept under. For the inner man, being conformed to God and created after the image of God through faith, rejoices and delights itself in Christ, in whom such blessings have been conferred on it, and hence has only this task before it: to serve God with joy and for nought in free love.

But in doing this he comes into collision with that contrary will in his own flesh, which is striving to serve the world and to seek its own gratification. This the spirit of faith cannot and will not bear, but applies itself with cheerfulness and zeal to keep it down and restrain it, as Paul says, "I delight in the law of God after the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin" (Rom. vii. 22, 23), and again, "I keep under my body, and bring it unto subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Cor. ix. 27), and "They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts" (Gal. v. 24).

((((((These works, however, must not be done with any notion that by them a man can be justified before God--for faith, which alone is righteousness before God, will not bear with this false notion--but solely with this purpose: that the body may be brought into subjection, and be purified from its evil lusts, so that our eyes may be turned only to purging away those lusts.)))))))

For when the soul has been cleansed by faith and made to love God, it would have all things to be cleansed in like manner, and especially its own body, so that all things might unite with it in the love and praise of God. Thus it comes that, from the requirements of his own body, a man cannot take his ease, but is compelled on its account to do many good works, that he may bring it into subjection. Yet these works are not the means of his justification before God; he does them out of disinterested love to the service of God; looking to no other end than to do what is well-pleasing to Him whom he desires to obey most dutifully in all things.

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It is clear that Luther believed that Salvation was for good. That faith created a spirit that wants to please God. It is an impossibility for a believer to turn their back on God if they have a spirit that wants to please God. This agrees with the Scripture that says we are born again of incorruptible seed and the one that says God will lose nothing. The new nature is one of obedience not sin.

[st. Worm]

Mark777 quote:

"The new nature is one of obedience not sin."

SW:

Unfortunately and as the Apostle writes in Romans 7 the sin nature still remains. The new man stands justified before God for the sake of Christ, not because of obedience. The old man still remains. Check it out.

Also, you have misrepresented Luther's view with your selected quotes. Luther, like Paul, knew that sin still was a great force in the life of the believer. Perfectionism was not in Luther's vocabulary. For Luther the Christian life was one of repentance. But what do you care what Luther wrote. Isn't that "man made doctrine?" ;-)

[Mark777]

Luther: "These works, however, must not be done with any notion that by them a man can be justified before God--for faith, which alone is righteousness before God, will not bear with this false notion.."

Mark: Thanks Martin, I kind of knew that works didn't justifiy me either before or after salvation. Your follower though doesn't realize this and doesn't understand that the old man is to be subdued and will be the thing that dies - the new man will live forever wanting to please God.

[Mark777]

More Quotes from Martin Luther on total justification by faith alone.

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"But those who pretend to be justified by works are looking, not to the mortification of their lusts, but only to the works themselves; thinking that, if they can accomplish as many works and as great ones as possible, all is well with them, and they are justified. Sometimes they even injure their brain, and extinguish nature, or at least make it useless. This is enormous folly, and ignorance of Christian life and faith, when a man seeks, without faith, to be justified and saved by works.

To make what we have said more easily understood, let us set it forth under a figure. The works of a Christian man, who is justified and saved by his faith out of the pure and unbought mercy of God, ought to be regarded in the same light as would have been those of Adam and Eve in paradise and of all their posterity if they had not sinned. Of them it is said, "The Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it" (Gen. ii. 15). Now Adam had been created by God just and righteous, so that he could not have needed to be justified and made righteous by keeping the garden and working in it; but, that he might not be unemployed, God gave him the business of keeping and cultivating paradise. These would have indeed been works of perfect freedom, being done for no object but that of pleasing God, and not in order to obtain justification, which he already had to the full, and which would have been innate in us all.

So it is with the works of a believer. Being by his faith replaced afresh in paradise and created anew, he does not need works for his justification, but that he may not be idle, but may exercise his own body and preserve it. His works are to be done freely, with the sole object of pleasing God. Only we are not yet fully created anew in perfect faith and love; these require to be increased, not, however, through works, but through themselves."

"Since then works justify no man, but a man must be justified before he can do any good work, it is most evident that it is faith alone which, by the mere mercy of God through Christ, and by means of His word, can worthily and sufficiently justify and save the person;

((((( and that a Christian man needs no work, no law, for his salvation; for by faith he is free from all law, and in perfect freedom does gratuitously all that he does, seeking nothing either of profit or of salvation--since by the grace of God he is already saved and rich in all things through his faith--but solely that which is well-pleasing to God.")))))

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Mark777: Amen Martin! You know, you were pretty good..... and that stuff about the Jews.... it died with your old nature.

Martin: It sure did, brother.

[Mark777]

One more quote for now from Luther about the Christian life:

"Who then can comprehend the riches and glory of the Christian life? It can do all things, has all things, and is in want of nothing; is lord over sin, death, and hell, and at the same time is the obedient and useful servant of all."

Mark777: Amen, Martin!

Martin: Well, if you would just read your Bible........

Mark777: I do and I knew this before but there are these people that say they follow you and......

Martin: Ah forget about them... Hey bar-keep, fill it to the Father.....!

[Mark777]

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly....God demonstrated His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us....For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (Romans 5:6,8,10).

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We live in Him, through Him, and by Him. God indwells us and keeps us. Amen!

Mark