Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[WilliamL]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

...Jesus refers to an 'abomination that makes desolate' (A of D) in the gospels. Jesus also said that Daniel spoke of this event as well. We are told to refer to what Daniel said about this 'abomination'. Along with encouraging us to read what Daniel the Prophet said about this 'abomination that makes desolate' Jesus said that after the A of D occurs there would be 'great tribulation'. As in Matt 24:15-21: 

 

¹⁵ “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’^[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— ¹⁶ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ¹⁷ Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. ¹⁸ Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. ¹⁹ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! ²⁰ Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. (this 'great distress', 'great tribulation' in the KJV, follows and is directly associated with the A of D)

All true.

Third, Daniel said this A of D, the same one Jesus referred to in the Gospels, occurs in the 'midst of the week'.

Daniel 9:27:

 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’(Week)^[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’ (Week)^[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple^[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. So it's pretty clear that the A of D occurs in the middle of the last week(seven).

This is a false translation of the Hebrew text, which does not use the Hebrew phrase "abomination of desolation" here. What it literally says is, "upon a wing/corner/extremity, desolating abominations [plural]." This event was literally fulfilled by the Romans in 70 AD in their attacks staged upon the Temple from out of the Antonia Fortress on the northwest corner/wing of the Temple Mount. Everything in Daniel's 70th week was fulfilled in literal detail in the 7-year Jewish War of 66-73 AD.

The passage to which Jesus referred is found in Daniel 12:11, wherein the phrase in the Hebrew is truly "abomination of desolation." That passage is part of the context of Daniel 11:40 - 12:13, which begins with the phrase "at the time of the end."

You are merely parroting an old false teaching, based upon a false reading of Daniel 9:27, which has no second witness of Scripture in agreement: there is no biblical witness that specifically speaks of a 7-year tribulation in the End Times.

 

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, ghtan said:

...However, tribulation is just another term for suffering and the latter is all over Rev. What seems clear is that there is a period of suffering in the seals, another in the trumpets and another in the bowls.

What takes place during the first 5 Seals of Rev. 6 is the same sequence of events that take place in Matt. 24, up to the return of Christ "immediately after the Tribulation," 24:29.

Then come the great heavenly and earthly signs and cataclysms of the 6th Seal: Matt. 24:29-30 = Rev. 6:12-14.

Then comes Jesus in the clouds to take up his elect, at which time 'every eye will see him, and all the peoples of the earth will mourn.' Matt. 24:30-31 = Rev. 1:7 = Rev. 6:15-17.

At this point the Great Tribulation has already been fulfilled, and "the great day of [God's] wrath has come," Rev. 6:17. Everything after that point is the period of Wrath, not Tribulation. The Church is now gone, because "God did not appoint us to wrath," 1 Thes. 5:9.

The great deception of those who teach what you and others like you teach is that the Tribulation and the Wrath are the same thing, but Scripture makes a clear distinction between the two. What the Scriptures teach is that our Lord's Coming will be Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib. Which is the topic of this string. If you cannot understand and support this teaching, go to one of the following strings wherein you find agreement.

[ghtan]

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The great deception of those who teach what you and others like you teach is that the Tribulation and the Wrath are the same thing, but Scripture makes a clear distinction between the two. What the Scriptures teach is that our Lord's Coming will be Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib. Which is the topic of this string. If you cannot understand and support this teaching, go to one of the following strings wherein you find agreement.

You mean to say that your view hinges on the difference between the word tribulation and the word wrath?! How disappointing. I agree with you; it is not worth discussing (2 Tim 2:14).

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, ghtan said:

You mean to say that your view hinges on the difference between the word tribulation and the word wrath?! How disappointing. I agree with you; it is not worth discussing (2 Tim 2:14).

Words mean things and that so happens to be a significant distinction to be made.

[FresnoJoe]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2015 at 9:10 AM, WilliamL said:

The great deception of those who teach ....
that the Tribulation and the Wrath are the same thing, but Scripture makes a clear distinction....

Man's Tribulation Upon The Earth 

And a mouth that speaks great things and blasphemy was given to it, and authority was given to it to work forty two months. And it opened its mouth to blaspheme before God, to blaspheme The Name and the dwelling of those who dwell in Heaven.

And it was granted to make war with The Holy Ones and to conquer them, and it was given authority over all generations, peoples, languages and nations. And all the inhabitants of The Earth will worship it, those who are not written in The Book of Life of The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. He who has an ear, let him hear. Whoever leads into captivity goes into captivity and those who murder with the sword will be killed with the sword.

Here is faith and the endurance of The Holy Ones. Revelation 13:5-10 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

And Upon Beloved Israel

I will leave and go back to my place until they admit their offense and seek my face. When affliction comes to them, they will eagerly seek me. Hosea 5:15 (International Standard Version)

And The Lord's Wrath

“See now that I myself am he!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.

I lift my hand to heaven and solemnly swear:
As surely as I live forever,

when I sharpen my flashing sword
and my hand grasps it in judgment,
I will take vengeance on my adversaries
and repay those who hate me.

I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
while my sword devours flesh:
the blood of the slain and the captives,
the heads of the enemy leaders.”

Rejoice, you nations, with his people,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people. Deuteronomy 32:39-43 (New International Version)

Upon Man

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed signs on his behalf, by which he deceived those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse. Revelation 19:19-21 (Berean Study Bible)

Don't Mess With Jesus~!

Love, Your Brother Joe

[ghtan]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Words mean things and that so happens to be a significant distinction to be made.

Context is more important.

[WilliamL]

Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib Summary

Some believers will be killed during the Trib: these are those saints of the 5th Seal "slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." Rev. 6:9 = Matt. 24:9

Then comes the 6th Seal's heavenly and earthly cataclysms = Matt. 24:29, which come "immediately after the Tribulation."

Then comes Christ in the clouds to gather up his elect = the Rapture, while being seen by every eye (Rev. 1:7), which causes all the unbelievers to mourn, and to flee and hide in fear. Matt. 24:30-31; Rev. 1:7, 6:15-17; Is. 2:10-11, 19-21

At that point, after the Rapture of the Church and during the unbelievers' fear, "the great day of His [God's] Wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17). But "God did not appoint us [the elect] to [His] Wrath," 1 Thes. 5:9, so we've been taken outta here just before.

But at this same time, there is a third group, those of Israel who also see Jesus in the clouds, realize that he is their Messiah "whom they pierced," and therefore demonstrate their repentance and faith in him when they "mourn for him like one mourns for his only son." Zech. 12:10ff.

The very next event in Rev. 7:1-8, which continues on from the earthly perspective of Rev. 6, then tells us of the 144,000 Israelites who are sanctified/sealed in their foreheads "on the earth." Who are these but the repentant ones of Zech. 12:10? For them, it is too late to be raptured, because they were not among "those who were ready" when the Bridegroom came. Matt. 25:10

Then John's view is shifted to heaven, and he is shown 'those who came out of the Great Tribulation' (Rev. 7:14), being those just raptured, "standing before the throne and the before the Lamb, clothed with white robes." Rev. 7:9 These fulfill the promise of Luke 21:36: "Watch, therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [of the Great Tribulation] and to stand before the Son of Man."

Rev. 8-19 then tells us what will come upon all who were not ready:  they must go through the time of God's Wrath, which includes both the Trumpets and Bowls, during which there will be believers on earth who will be martyred by the Beast. They will arise in the Rev. 20:4 resurrection, after Christ has descended to earth (Rev. 19) and defeated the Beast and kings of the earth.

[Spock]

Wow William.  Awesome insight. Your 36 years of study has made you very very wise. Well done good and faithful servant.

 

[WilliamL]

The passages you quote from Joel have nothing to do with the Great Tribulation and Rapture of the Church. They have to do with the judgments of God upon the inhabitants of earth during the time of his Wrath, which Joel makes clear.

The Wrath of God only takes place after the Church has been removed. "God has not appointed us [the elect of his Church] to wrath," we are told 1 Thes. 5:9. During the time of that Wrath, both Israel and the nations will be judged: Israel during the time of the Trumpets, and the nations during the time of the Bowls. The Tribulation of the Church begins and ends during the time of the Seals.

And correspondingly, there will be three separate times of earthly cataclysms in the End Times, not just one. Just like there were during the Exodus, in

1) the period up to and including God's descent upon Mt. Sinai;

2) when Korah and his rebellious Israelite buddies were consumed by fire and swallowed up by the earth; and

3) during Joshua's long day, when the great battle against the assembled nations took place.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

when Christ comes to resurrect the dead in Christ and the living in Christ, it says we will be changed in a twinkle of an eye, we will have new bodies, we will be immortal, why would you need to be taking out of the earth, when you are now literally in your new bodies not of this earth.

Because Rev. 7 says they are in heaven after the Great Tribulation, and 1 Thes. 4 says they will be caught up in the air to be with the Lord, and Hebrews 12:22-23 says they will be in the heavenly Jerusalem. Good enough reasons?

Regarding Joel, yes he says there will be heavenly and earthly cataclysms before the Day of the Lord, but his book is about Israel, not the Church. And Israel is to be judged and redeemed on earth after the Church is taken out. That is why the Joel's End Time prophecies talk about earthly battles etc. OT prophets never spoke about the Church, because it was never given for them to do so.

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

This is interesting....i like things like this...you got more on this?

This is from a previous post in this forum, about the same three events noted above:

...the 3 earthquakes of Revelation.

As I show on my website, all the significant events of the Exodus were types and shadows of the Day of the Lord. (Which, I hope we all can agree, is a substantial period of time, not a single day or event.) Did you know that 3 separate earthquakes also took place during the Exodus era? Here are the Exodus-era types, and their Day of the LORD fulfillments:

The Exodus, at Mount Sinai: Thick darkness, earthquake, God's trumpet/shofar sounding. The LORD descended upon Mount Sinai in clouds of smoke; most people cowered away from his Presence. But those who were ready went up into his Presence. Ex. 19:16f.; 20:18
6th Seal: Thick darkness, earthquake, God's trumpet/shofar sounding. Jesus descends in the clouds; most people are greatly afraid and hide themselves. But those who are ready go up into his Presence. Rev. 6:12-17; 1 Thes. 4:16; Matt. 24:29-30; Heb. 12:18-28

During the Exodus sojourn in the wilderness: Moses and Aaron, after having prophesied and performed similar miracles as the Two Witnesses, were confronted and accused by Korah and others. The LORD then validated their ministry, killing thousands of their adversaries by earthquake, fire and plague. Num. 16; Ex. 7-10
6th Trumpet, Priestly Section: The Two Witnesses prophesy, burn their enemies with fire, turn waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues. They are accused and attacked by the Beast and others. God publicly validates their ministry by raising them from the dead; an earthquake then kills thousands. Rev. 11:3-13

After the Exodus, in Canaan: Joshua—Yeshua—and the Israelites defeated the many armies gathered together against them on 'the day the sun stood still.' "[T]he earth trembled and shook" amidst a great storm (Jasher 89:15), and great hailstones fell from heaven. The Canaanite armies were routed and slaughtered, and their kings were captured alive and "cast into" a cave. Josh. 10
7th Bowl: "[T]hunderings and lightnings...a mighty and great earthquake...great hail from heaven." Jesus—Yeshua—and the armies of heaven descend to destroy the armies gathered together against them. The Beast and the False Prophet are captured alive, and "cast into" the lake of fire.  Rev. 16:17-21; 19:11-21

The types of events during the Exodus that foreshadow the events of the End Times were sequential in time. There are no scriptures that say they will not likewise be sequential in the End Times.