Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[WilliamL]

1 minute ago, luigi said:

I see that you are delving off the main point, with your conjectures.

Not a conjecture. Zech. 12:10ff. says as much.

2 minutes ago, luigi said:

If you wish to see the book of Revelation and other books of the bible as one straight forward story line, without any points in retrospect, that is up to you.

I follow what the Word actually says. And Rev. 4:1 says that all things thereafter will be events of the future, not the past. (So Rev. 12's manchild is NOT about Jesus' birth, for example, which took place before the time Revelation was written.)

The 7 each seals, trumpets, and bowls are sequential. However, other passages, such as in chapters 11 and 12, describe some parts of already-mentioned End Time events from a different viewpoint.

Practically everything from chapters 4 through 19 were presaged by parallel events, often using the same words, during the Exodus era. Shown in a 4-part series of blogs beginning here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1980-the-end-times-and-the-exodus-part-1/

 

[luigi]

3 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Not a conjecture. Zech. 12:10ff. says as much.

I follow what the Word actually says. And Rev. 4:1 says that all things thereafter will be events of the future, not the past. (So Rev. 12's manchild is NOT about Jesus' birth, for example, which took place before the time Revelation was written.)

The 7 each seals, trumpets, and bowls are sequential. However, other passages, such as in chapters 11 and 12, describe some parts of already-mentioned End Time events from a different viewpoint.

Practically everything from chapters 4 through 19 were presaged by parallel events, often using the same words, during the Exodus era. Shown in a 4-part series of blogs beginning here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1980-the-end-times-and-the-exodus-part-1/

 

I am glad to see you acknowledge that events following Revelation chapter 4:1 are future events, and therefore the birth of the man child in Revelation 12 is not about Jesus' birth. I have said the same in many other posts here over the years, which many people on this forum seem to ignore, and continue to assert being Jesus. 

 

[Montana Marv]

On 4/14/2024 at 4:39 PM, luigi said:

I am glad to see you acknowledge that events following Revelation chapter 4:1 are future events, and therefore the birth of the man child in Revelation 12 is not about Jesus' birth. I have said the same in many other posts here over the years, which many people on this forum seem to ignore, and continue to assert being Jesus. 

 

Then you need to know who this person is who rules all the nations.  And he was snatched up to God and his throne. (Ascension) . Rev 4:6 - and I saw a Lamb , looking as it had been slain.  Where is this.  In the Throne room.  Jesus the Man Child, who is the Christ was born out of Israel, His inheritance.  Much of Chp 12 is historical, yet much is future.  Who is this woman with the 12 stars,  Part of Joseph's dream, past.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[luigi]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Then you need to know who this person is who rules all the nations.  And he was snatched up to God and his throne. (Ascension) . Rev 4:6 - and I saw a Lamb , looking as it had been slain.  Where is this.  In the Throne room.  Jesus the Man Child, who is the Christ was born out of Israel, His inheritance.  Much of Chp 12 is historical, yet much is future.  Who is this woman with the 12 stars,  Part of Joseph's dream, past.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hello Montana Marv,

Rather than not believe the Word to John, that what he is about to be shown in subsequent chapters of Revelation, regards the hereafter (after the 1st century AD), I on the other hand believe the scripture (Revelation 4:1) as truth.

As such, I then realize that the events in Revelation 12, where the woman is enduring travail for 3.5 times/1260 days, is in regards to the great tribulation period the saints will experience during the beasts reign.

The man child I therefore reason to be the saints who will no longer place their faith in both the Lord and Mammon. The saints will then have no other gods/loves before the Lord, and will not worship the things his hands make.

[WilliamL]

On 4/16/2024 at 6:07 AM, Montana Marv said:

Then you need to know who this person is who rules all the nations.  And he was snatched up to God and his throne. (Ascension) . Rev 4:6 - and I saw a Lamb , looking as it had been slain.  Where is this.  In the Throne room.  Jesus the Man Child, who is the Christ was born out of Israel, His inheritance.  Much of Chp 12 is historical, yet much is future.  Who is this woman with the 12 stars,  Part of Joseph's dream, past.

You are mixing metaphors. If the Woman is Israel (it isn't, but say for the sake of argument), well, Israel is a collective group of people, not an individual. So therefore this Woman's offspring would not be a single man, but a group of men.

And such is what they are, for the Lord told us:

Rev. 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

Rev. 2:26 "“And the one overcoming, and keeping My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father..."

Jesus says that all who fulfill the underlined part above will be of the manchild group of Rev. 12.

[Revelation Man]

On 4/14/2024 at 5:39 PM, luigi said:

I am glad to see you acknowledge that events following Revelation chapter 4:1 are future events, and therefore the birth of the man child in Revelation 12 is not about Jesus' birth. I have said the same in many other posts here over the years, which many people on this forum seem to ignore, and continue to assert being Jesus. 

Yes, Rev. 12:1-17 is about a FUTURE EVENT, but Rev. 12:1-5 is a code to understand the end tine event. John being shown in the future, and event with a coded message does not break the Rev. 4:1 truth that everything is future from that point on. 

The male child comes, dies and now sits at the righthand of God.

So, we get the key to understanding "The Women" without that code who would understand? John could not say Israel because if he did that would have periled the lives of those Christians passing down the the book of Revelation/letter. 

Rev. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

So, the Woman is described above and a key code in Gen. 37:9 is given, then below she flees unto Judea, so that happens at the 1260 event, so its evident everything about this event is past the Rev. 4:1 Rapture. Verses 1-5 was just telling us who the Woman is (Israel) 

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness(Prophecy starts here), where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days(1260 days).

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.( So, Satan chases Israel for 1260 days because he gets cast out of heaven at the midway point. So, everything in Rev. 12 is about the 1260 DOTL event )

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time(1260).

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.(Israel who birthed the Messiah male child gets persecuted by the Dragon) 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle(God the Father protects Israel), that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time(1260 days), from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood(A.C. Army) after the woman(Israel), that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman(the 1/3 who repent), and went to make war with the remnant of her(Israel) seed(Jesus see Gal. 3:16 there was ONE SEED, Christ Jesus), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (The underlined bold are very, very important, it proves a pre trib/70th week rapture)

Satan can not get at the Woman (1/3) who repents, so he goes after the "Remnant of her Seed" So, the Remnant Church which is on earth by way of repenting after the Pre Trib. Rapture or the Gentile Remnant Church is who the dragon goes after, we know this because he can not get at the Women (1/3) who flees into the Petra/Bozra area and the 2/3 DO NOT have the Testimony of Jesus. The Remnant Church proves the Rapture is pre tri. or pre 70th week

[luigi]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes, Rev. 12:1-17 is about a FUTURE EVENT, but Rev. 12:1-5 is a code to understand the end tine event. John being shown in the future, and event with a coded message does not break the Rev. 4:1 truth that everything is future from that point on. 

The male child comes, dies and now sits at the righthand of God.

So, we get the key to understanding "The Women" without that code who would understand? John could not say Israel because if he did that would have periled the lives of those Christians passing down the the book of Revelation/letter. 

Rev. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

So, the Woman is described above and a key code in Gen. 37:9 is given, then below she flees unto Judea, so that happens at the 1260 event, so its evident everything about this event is past the Rev. 4:1 Rapture. Verses 1-5 was just telling us who the Woman is (Israel) 

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness(Prophecy starts here), where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days(1260 days).

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.( So, Satan chases Israel for 1260 days because he gets cast out of heaven at the midway point. So, everything in Rev. 12 is about the 1260 DOTL event )

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time(1260).

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.(Israel who birthed the Messiah male child gets persecuted by the Dragon) 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle(God the Father protects Israel), that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time(1260 days), from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood(A.C. Army) after the woman(Israel), that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman(the 1/3 who repent), and went to make war with the remnant of her(Israel) seed(Jesus see Gal. 3:16 there was ONE SEED, Christ Jesus), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (The underlined bold are very, very important, it proves a pre trib/70th week rapture)

Satan can not get at the Woman (1/3) who repents, so he goes after the "Remnant of her Seed" So, the Remnant Church which is on earth by way of repenting after the Pre Trib. Rapture or the Gentile Remnant Church is who the dragon goes after, we know this because he can not get at the Women (1/3) who flees into the Petra/Bozra area and the 2/3 DO NOT have the Testimony of Jesus. The Remnant Church proves the Rapture is pre tri. or pre 70th week

Good day Revelation Man,

I on the other hand believe the travailing woman to be the saints being made white (cleaned from their double mindedness, love for the things of this world), during the tribulation period (Daniel 11:35). Many saints being cleansed from their love for the things of this world, will die during this tribulation time (Revelation 6:11), but not a hair on their heads will perish, and will then take possession of their souls (Luke 21:18-19).

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, luigi said:

Good day Revelation Man,

I on the other hand believe the travailing woman to be the saints being made white (cleaned from their double mindedness, love for the things of this world), during the tribulation period (Daniel 11:35). Many saints being cleansed from their love for the things of this world, will die during this tribulation time (Revelation 6:11), but not a hair on their heads will perish, and will then take possession of their souls (Luke 21:18-19).

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Hello brother, mostly I think Dan. 11:21-35 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, but I always says Dan. 21-34 because verse 35 indeed seems to be a "Transition verse" I think its about the Jews from that time on (Maccabean War) who came to God, then unto Christ for the whole Church Age, and even into the 70th week. So, I get your Daniel 11:35 point, but I do not think its just about the 70th week, if you catch my drift.

As per Rev. 12:1-5 I do not think there is an easier prophetic code to understand, its Israel. Then we get the play by play of end time events. 

As per Rev. 6:11 I think they are the Gentiles who repent, Satan/A.C. can't get at the Woman sans Israel. BUT........I think all the Seals are Prophetic Uttering except Seal #7 where it is just the last binding on the scroll that binds the Trump Judgment Scrolls. Joel 2:31 AND Seal #6 are BOTH pointing towards Trump #4 where the Sun & Moon go dim/dark by 1/3, it points to God's Wrath that begin with the Trumpet Judgments and last 42 months, not at the 6th Seal but in the near future, after the 6th Seal, which all starts at the 7th Seal. The first 5 Seals foretell the Anti-Christs 42 month rule. 1.) He conquers by Peace or deal making 2.) Then he conquers by War 3.) His rule brings 42 months of famine. 4.) His reign of terror sees many dying, much sickness and many going to the Grave (Hades). Seal #5 is God seeing into the future and telling us the hearts of those killed after the A.C. conquers and rules over the masses. But they are Christian Martyrs who repent after the Rapture, the Jewish Saints who repent are protected.

Those Martyrs are told (even though its future) they must wait until their brothers have all been killed in like manner as they have, so they are not raised & judged until Rev. 20:4, meaning they can not be the Saints seen in Rev. 7:9-16, that can only be the pre 70th week or pre trib. raptured church, imho. 

[luigi]

57 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Hello brother, mostly I think Dan. 11:21-35 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, but I always says Dan. 21-34 because verse 35 indeed seems to be a "Transition verse" I think its about the Jews from that time on (Maccabean War) who came to God, then unto Christ for the whole Church Age, and even into the 70th week. So, I get your Daniel 11:35 point, but I do not think its just about the 70th week, if you catch my drift.

As per Rev. 12:1-5 I do not think there is an easier prophetic code to understand, its Israel. Then we get the play by play of end time events. 

As per Rev. 6:11 I think they are the Gentiles who repent, Satan/A.C. can't get at the Woman sans Israel. BUT........I think all the Seals are Prophetic Uttering except Seal #7 where it is just the last binding on the scroll that binds the Trump Judgment Scrolls. Joel 2:31 AND Seal #6 are BOTH pointing towards Trump #4 where the Sun & Moon go dim/dark by 1/3, it points to God's Wrath that begin with the Trumpet Judgments and last 42 months, not at the 6th Seal but in the near future, after the 6th Seal, which all starts at the 7th Seal. The first 5 Seals foretell the Anti-Christs 42 month rule. 1.) He conquers by Peace or deal making 2.) Then he conquers by War 3.) His rule brings 42 months of famine. 4.) His reign of terror sees many dying, much sickness and many going to the Grave (Hades). Seal #5 is God seeing into the future and telling us the hearts of those killed after the A.C. conquers and rules over the masses. But they are Christian Martyrs who repent after the Rapture, the Jewish Saints who repent are protected.

Those Martyrs are told (even though its future) they must wait until their brothers have all been killed in like manner as they have, so they are not raised & judged until Rev. 20:4, meaning they can not be the Saints seen in Rev. 7:9-16, that can only be the pre 70th week or pre trib. raptured church, imho. 

Good day Revelation Man,

When Daniel inquires of the angel as to the meaning of the visions he is shown in Daniel chapters 10 and 11, he is told to go on his way, because the data is sealed for those days, as they are about the end times (Daniel 12:8-9), and at which time in the future, many of us inquiring of these visions meanings, will then increase in knowledge about what they mean (Daniel 12:4).

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

[choir loft]

On 6/9/2015 at 3:34 AM, George said:

Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

 

 

EVERY SINGLE approximation of the future rests upon the rapture and its relationship to the Tribulation.

Some argue one way and others argue another way.  Nobody seems to be convinced of anything - except a few people, including me.  Those 'few people' are Jews.

The Tribulation has already happened.

Consider the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:7 who called a terrible future period "a time of Jacob's distress." Other translations use the words 'trouble' or 'tribulation'.  The reference to Jacob is to future Jews.

The prophet Daniel refers to a 'week of years' that's almost universally interpreted to mean seven years in length.

Jesus is quoted in Mark 13:19 as saying, "...those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again"   Key words of understanding here are intended to predict the seven year period of Tribulation for the Jews would only happen ONCE.

From 1938 to 1945, a period of 7 YEARS, the Holocaust destroyed the lives of most of the European Jews at that time.  The population of Jews in Europe has never recovered to its pre-WW II levels.

Most protestants view eschatology in the same way as the old fable "The Emperor's New Cloths".   In the fable, the Emperor didn't wear any clothing at all, but had been persuaded that his nakedness was covered by invisible robes.   The moral of the story is obvious, but applicable to many who appreciate Biblical authority, but who do NOT study the Bible nor history.  They stand before the world naked as the day they were born when they pronounce their false interpretation of the Tribulation.  Everybody knows how stupid their story is except the ones who preach it.

The final nail in the coffin of rapture story tellers is the idea that the rapture comes before, during or after the tribulation - nobody seems able to make up their addled mind about the timing.  In his book, FUTURE GLORY, Ed Hindson goes out on a very thin limb and declares that the Tribulation will happen after the rapture.  That's not possible because the Tribulation has already happened.  Everybody is still eating dinner at home these days. Nobody is enjoying an honors banquet in heaven - yet.

Mr. Hindson also falsely claims the rapture will usher in the end of the church age.  Unfortunately for Mr. Hindson's theory the church age HAS ALREADY ENDED too.

The church age ended on June 6, 1967 when the IDF liberated the entire city of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.  Luke 21:24 quotes Jesus' prophecy of future events when Christ says, "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."  

Jerusalem was liberated by the IDF on June 6, 1967.  On that day the times of the gentiles were fulfilled.   What does that, as well as the timing of the Tribulation, mean in terms of human history and its future?  Obviously a lot of people, including Mr. Hindson are really wrong about a great many things. 

What we see in action these days is a preponderance of antisemitic church dogma that supporters refuse to let go of.   Like the Emperor's new cloths they'd rather live naked lives of fantasy than to study the Bible and watch the signs of the times (as Jesus recommended).  

What's next for mankind?   We will have to watch and see.  Certainly the myths concocted by numerous church con artists will not teach us anything.

Watch the sky.   Jesus will appear soon.  Of that I am certain.  Exactly when remains to be seen....but fools will continue to insist upon their mistaken predictions - as the pharisees also did before Jesus' first advent.

Some things never change.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...  (Isaiah 6:9-10)

Edited April 29 by choir loft