Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Whether or not Abaddon is the Beast (he is, but I won't go into that), Rev. 11:7 and 17:8 both state that the Beast will "ascend out of the Abyss."

 

Go into it. If he is the beast, I'd like to know.

Here are two parts of the eight part series about the Beast.

Who IS the Beast?

We saw in Part 2 that “the Beast will ascend out of the Abyss.” Rev. 17:8; 11:7 So then, we need to discover WHO is presently in the Abyss, and WHY. These questions have been answered by Jude, Peter, Enoch, and also in Hebrew and Greek mythology:

Jude 6 The angels who did not keep their place of authority, but left their habitation, [God] has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 …God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness [or, pits of gloom], to be reserved for judgment…

Tartarus is a term from Greek mythology, referring to the lowest pit (the Abyss) of Hades/Hell, wherein the Titans – very powerful but rebellious spirits/“gods”/elohim of old – anciently had been cast down by the “good” elohim: that is, the biblical archangels.

The Book of Enoch, quoted in Jude 14-15, provides more details. Briefly, angelic Watchers (cf. Dan. 4:13, 17, 23) – “the sons of God” (Gen. 6:2) – became enamored by the beauty of human women, and came down – “left their habitation” (Jude 6) – to have God-forbidden intercourse with them. Genesis 6:1-2 paraphrases Enoch 7:1-2:

Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass when men began to multiply upon the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took them wives of all whom they chose.

Enoch 7:1 And it came to pass after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. 2 And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamored of them, and said to one another, “Come, let us choose wives from among the children of men, and let us beget children.”

These angels and their hybrid progeny, the latter being the Nephilim/giants of Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33, soon corrupted mankind with sorcery, the arts of harlotry, and the arts of war. After “all flesh had corrupted their way” (Gen. 6:12), God decreed the Flood “to destroy from under heaven all flesh” except for Noah and his family. Gen. 6:17 At that time, God sent archangels to bind the rebellious Watchers, and to seal them into great pits rent in the earth:

Enoch 87:5 [They] cast them into the cavities of the earth. 10:15 “bind them for 70 generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment… 9 …and in the great day of judgment let [them] be cast into the fire.”

So, these are the ones who are in the Abyss/Tartarus. Enoch tells us that they had two primary leaders:

Enoch 9:5 “You have seen what Azazel has done, how he has taught every species of iniquity upon Earth… 6 Shemhazai has also taught sorcery…” 10:12 “All the earth has been corrupted by the teaching of the work of Azazel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2780-the-beast-part-3-who-is-the-beast/

The King of the Abyss

At the opening of Revelation 6ʼs Sixth Seal, a Latter Day

Revelation 6:12 …great earthquake… 14 …[causes] every mountain and island [to be] moved out of its place.”

Sometime thereafter,

Revelation 9:1 …a star having fallen from heaven to the earth…[will be] given the key to the pit [or, the shaft] of the Abyss. 2 And he [shall] open the pit of the Abyss,

thereby releasing its evil spirits. This “fallen star” will either be Satan or one of his host, recently “cast out [of heaven] to the earth” by Michael and his host. Rev. 12:7-9

Revelation 9:11 tells us that there is a “king over them [the Abyss’s evil spirits], the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon [Destroyer].” Evidence presented in Parts 3 and 4 reveal that this fallen angel must be Azazel, the worst of the descended rebellious spirits whose evils led to the destruction of the Noahic world. This is the Beast whose spirit has underlain the seven great beasts/kings/kingdoms of subsequent ages. Even as his spirit was before, and will be again, underlain by that of Satan the Dragon:

Enoch 53:5 …the host of Azazel… 6 …became ministers of Satan, and seduced those who dwell upon earth.

Revelation 13:2 The Dragon [will give] him [the Beast] his power, his throne, and great authority.

At this time, Satan will grant to Azazel the Beast “all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them” that he once offered to Jesus. Matt. 4:8

Revelation 17:8 tells us “the Beast will come up out of the Abyss, and go to perdition.” Revelation 13:1 says the Beast will “com[e] up out of the sea.” We saw in Part 4 that there are remnants of ancient fissures in the earth, both on land and under the sea. (The Great Rift Valley alone extends through both two continents and two seas.) The False Prophet, who “performs great signs” and “speaks like a dragon” – attributes of powerful sorcery – will “com[e] up out of the earth.” Rev. 13:11, 13 This beast is most likely Shemhazai, the earthly progenitor of sorcery.

After being allowed by the Lord to deceive the nations, the Beast and the False Prophet will be defeated by Christ and “cast alive into the lake of fire.” Rev. 19:20 This fulfills “the judgment of the Great Day” prophesied for them in Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4, and Enoch 10:9, all quoted in Part 3.

Enoch 10:9 “…and in the great day of judgment let [them] be cast into the fire.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2795-the-beast-part-5-the-king-of-the-abyss/

 

[Diaste]

On 7/3/2024 at 3:15 PM, WilliamL said:

Here are two parts of the eight part series about the Beast.

Who IS the Beast?

We saw in Part 2 that “the Beast will ascend out of the Abyss.” Rev. 17:8; 11:7 So then, we need to discover WHO is presently in the Abyss, and WHY. These questions have been answered by Jude, Peter, Enoch, and also in Hebrew and Greek mythology:

Jude 6 The angels who did not keep their place of authority, but left their habitation, [God] has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 …God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness [or, pits of gloom], to be reserved for judgment…

Tartarus is a term from Greek mythology, referring to the lowest pit (the Abyss) of Hades/Hell, wherein the Titans – very powerful but rebellious spirits/“gods”/elohim of old – anciently had been cast down by the “good” elohim: that is, the biblical archangels.

The Book of Enoch, quoted in Jude 14-15, provides more details. Briefly, angelic Watchers (cf. Dan. 4:13, 17, 23) – “the sons of God” (Gen. 6:2) – became enamored by the beauty of human women, and came down – “left their habitation” (Jude 6) – to have God-forbidden intercourse with them. Genesis 6:1-2 paraphrases Enoch 7:1-2:

Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass when men began to multiply upon the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took them wives of all whom they chose.

Enoch 7:1 And it came to pass after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. 2 And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamored of them, and said to one another, “Come, let us choose wives from among the children of men, and let us beget children.”

These angels and their hybrid progeny, the latter being the Nephilim/giants of Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33, soon corrupted mankind with sorcery, the arts of harlotry, and the arts of war. After “all flesh had corrupted their way” (Gen. 6:12), God decreed the Flood “to destroy from under heaven all flesh” except for Noah and his family. Gen. 6:17 At that time, God sent archangels to bind the rebellious Watchers, and to seal them into great pits rent in the earth:

Enoch 87:5 [They] cast them into the cavities of the earth. 10:15 “bind them for 70 generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment… 9 …and in the great day of judgment let [them] be cast into the fire.”

So, these are the ones who are in the Abyss/Tartarus. Enoch tells us that they had two primary leaders:

Enoch 9:5 “You have seen what Azazel has done, how he has taught every species of iniquity upon Earth… 6 Shemhazai has also taught sorcery…” 10:12 “All the earth has been corrupted by the teaching of the work of Azazel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2780-the-beast-part-3-who-is-the-beast/

The King of the Abyss

At the opening of Revelation 6ʼs Sixth Seal, a Latter Day

Revelation 6:12 …great earthquake… 14 …[causes] every mountain and island [to be] moved out of its place.”

Sometime thereafter,

Revelation 9:1 …a star having fallen from heaven to the earth…[will be] given the key to the pit [or, the shaft] of the Abyss. 2 And he [shall] open the pit of the Abyss,

thereby releasing its evil spirits. This “fallen star” will either be Satan or one of his host, recently “cast out [of heaven] to the earth” by Michael and his host. Rev. 12:7-9

Revelation 9:11 tells us that there is a “king over them [the Abyss’s evil spirits], the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon [Destroyer].” Evidence presented in Parts 3 and 4 reveal that this fallen angel must be Azazel, the worst of the descended rebellious spirits whose evils led to the destruction of the Noahic world. This is the Beast whose spirit has underlain the seven great beasts/kings/kingdoms of subsequent ages. Even as his spirit was before, and will be again, underlain by that of Satan the Dragon:

Enoch 53:5 …the host of Azazel… 6 …became ministers of Satan, and seduced those who dwell upon earth.

Revelation 13:2 The Dragon [will give] him [the Beast] his power, his throne, and great authority.

At this time, Satan will grant to Azazel the Beast “all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them” that he once offered to Jesus. Matt. 4:8

Revelation 17:8 tells us “the Beast will come up out of the Abyss, and go to perdition.” Revelation 13:1 says the Beast will “com[e] up out of the sea.” We saw in Part 4 that there are remnants of ancient fissures in the earth, both on land and under the sea. (The Great Rift Valley alone extends through both two continents and two seas.) The False Prophet, who “performs great signs” and “speaks like a dragon” – attributes of powerful sorcery – will “com[e] up out of the earth.” Rev. 13:11, 13 This beast is most likely Shemhazai, the earthly progenitor of sorcery.

After being allowed by the Lord to deceive the nations, the Beast and the False Prophet will be defeated by Christ and “cast alive into the lake of fire.” Rev. 19:20 This fulfills “the judgment of the Great Day” prophesied for them in Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4, and Enoch 10:9, all quoted in Part 3.

Enoch 10:9 “…and in the great day of judgment let [them] be cast into the fire.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2795-the-beast-part-5-the-king-of-the-abyss/

 

Interesting read. I'm not convinced that Azazael is a personality, as shown in Leviticus. It seems some translations anthropomorphize the ritual, while others use it as a name for the ritual, while yet others view it as a vessel of blame, a scapegoat.

From Lev 16 I read it's the idea of complete removal, a shadow type of the sinful being removed from the congregation of the righteous, an analogy to the work of Jesus taking away the sin of the world.

I'm still not convinced the book of Enoch is reliably divinely inspired. Maybe it is, I just am not there. It's in the Ethiopian Bible, so that helps.

However, I don't see the connection between Azazel the entity in Enoch and azazel the the vessel in Leviticus; other than both are the scapegoat, as you proposed:

"10:12 “All the earth has been corrupted by the teaching of the work of Azazel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.”"

I don't think this more than a situation where responsibility has been laid at the feet of the ringleader, much like the goat carrying the sin of Israel. 

Peter seems to say these angels are in chains till judgement day.

"For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;"

Which I assume is the GWT after the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Also, the beast which ascends out of the abyss must be of a former 7, Enoch records 200 angels came to earth and were imprisoned to be held for judgement day. 

I could be wrong, but I think the end of the age beast is unidentified by name at this point. 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 7/6/2024 at 4:38 AM, Diaste said:

I'm still not convinced the book of Enoch is reliably divinely inspired. Maybe it is, I just am not there. It's in the Ethiopian Bible, so that helps.

♫ If it was good enough for Peter

an' it was good enough for Jude an'

it was good enough for Moses, then its good enough for me. ♫