Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Marcus O'Reillius]

3. What desolations by God were poured out on him?

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

3. None, because none such were called for in the prophecy. The "desolating one" -- the Hebrew word is an active participle used as a noun -- may refer to John the Zealot, who caused his men to slaughter Jews worshiping in the inner Temple on the day of Passover in 70 AD. He was the leader of the original group that militarily occupied Jerusalem and made it the center of the Jewish rebellion against Rome; therefore, he was single person most responsible for the city's desolation.

None were called for in the prophecy?  I disagree.

26 Then after the sixty- two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."  NASB

In this very short linear narrative, outlining God's plan for Daniel's "people" (which includes us in one definition) and Jerusalem - the complete destruction, which is decreed - which goes back to what Gabriel just said - are the result of desolations which are poured out upon the desolator.

By itself, the act of pouring out is lost upon the reader.  However, with the Revelation of Christ Jesus to John, we can see how the one 'seven' ends - with the Bowl Judgments being poured out upon the King of the North.

John the Zealot hardly rises to the level of arch-villain.
- Furthermore, the 3rd person masculine singular pronoun who causes the sacrifice and offering to cease - by syntax - is the same 3rd person masculine singular pronoun who causes to prevail a covenant with many.  The two actions are linked to the same person in the Hebrew's use of the pronoun implicit in the verb conjugation.
- These actions will be both accomplished by the anti-Christ: the King of the North; the little horn which rises within the fourth terrible beast to become a beast of a man who is then worshiped and provides the role model for the talking image of him - which constitutes the WORST IDOL of all time!  And that is why siqqusim is plural.  Of all the silent idols which are abominations - this one speaks!

No God-derived desolations, which are planned by God, which results in a complete destruction, which is decreed by God - were not meted out upon this hapless rebel.  He met an ignoble end; that is all.
- However, when the man who will rule the whole world goes down before the Lord and His army - it will be at the end of the most calamitous set of desolations to ever hit the earth since the flood. 
- When we contrast this typical city-state siege to the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments which await the ruler who will come - the past hardly measures up to what God has planned which WILL utterly destroy the earth - reducing mankind to a mere fraction of its present populace.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4. What was the aftermath of the complete destruction from the desolations God wrought?

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

4. The aftermath was the end ever afterward of the authority of the House of Aaron's priests, along with the Levites, over the Jewish nation. Henceforth the rabbis took over from them as the leaders of the Jews. The management of the Temple and its Mosaic ordinances had been the basis of the House of Levi's authority.

That is hardly a complete destruction.

Furthermore, the Sanhedrin have reconstituted themselves and they are actively seeking the rebuilding of a Temple on the Temple Mount.  They came into existence over a decade ago.  They have been quite active in their quest to rebuild the (third) Temple, and they have acquired much of what they need.  They even are sought for guidance in military matters.  (This fact has ramifications for who it is that gives the final okay for making fire rain down from the sky as foretold in Revelation 13:13.)  http://www.heisnear.com/Sanhedrin.html

So if the power of the priests were the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27, how is it that they are again a force in Israel?

No, the idea of complete destruction is not fulfilled by the loss of authority by the Levite priests - and they aren't even completely destroyed.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

5. When did war cease at the end of the seven year period?

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

5. The fall of Masada on Passover in 73 AD marked the end of the Jewish rebellion, after which Roman military rule over Judea ended not long thereafter, and civilian rule was re-instituted. The rebellion lasted 7 years, 66-73 AD, and the prophecy was fulfilled, just as Jesus prophesied it would be:

You didn't really answer the question.  Because war continues even after the First Jewish Revolt, which didn't even rise to the level of war because it was so small.  

Secondly, the rebellion was not prophesied to last the one 'seven'; His covenant with many lasts one 'seven'.  If you want to say that various agreements satisfy a covenant with many - those various and sundry covenants not to obliterate other cities and towns remained in effect after Rome quenched all outward rebellious acts for the next few decades - until the Second Jewish Revolt, when all would be attacked.  So in the case of the First Jewish Revolt, even what you would like to point to fulfilling it, doesn't actually fulfill it when we examine what happened.  It only fulfills it if I take your conclusion for it as the only authority for saying it was fulfilled.

So the various covenants Vesparian made, and war went on, even after the non-event at Masada.  
_______________________________

When you contrast the steady-state of war which has existed since then, the Great War (WWI) and WWII which killed more people than any other conflict in the annals of human history - and then add on WWIII which is foretold to kill a third of the then-existing state of man in the end-time desolations God has decreed with the Sixth Trumpet / Second Woe - and then have North, South and East gathered at Armageddon for the final battle - only to have the victor, the anti-Christ face Christ Jesus and the 144,000 who never leave His Side - culminate in the Millennium Peace of Christ's Sabbath thousand years - THEN we will have realized that war continues to the end of the seventy 'sevens' which culminates with God's desolations being poured out on the premier evil ruler to ever rise up - actually conquering the whole world - only to lose it to God - who is the only One who is strong enough to beat him.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! ... 35 ...upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation. ... 38 Behold, your house [i.e. the Temple] is left to you desolate."

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. ... 22 “For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written [only in Daniel 9:26-27] may be fulfilled."

JESUS SAID THE PROPHECY THAT WAS WRITTEN WOULD BE "FULFILLED" IN "THIS GENERATION".

IF DANIEL 9:26-27 IS NOT WHERE THE FULFILLED PROPHECY OF JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE'S DESTRUCTION AND DESOLATION IS WRITTEN -- ENDING ALL MOSAIC-LAW BLOOD SACRIFICE AND MEAL OFFERING, 9:27 -- THEN SHOW US WHERE THAT WRITTEN PROPHECY IS!

Jesus gives us this salient and keystone linear narrative which details the "end" in the Olivet Discourse:

Perilous Times
15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or ' There He is, ' do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

The Glorious Return
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  NASB

This gives five specific and unique events:

• The Abomination
• The (shortened) Great Tribulation
• The sun/moon/star event
• The Sign of the Son of Man
• The gathering of the Elect.

Now in summary to this final discourse, the fifth of five in the book of Matthew, Jesus says this:

34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

I put it to you - that "THIS" generation is linked in His statement to "all these things" - which is the list that He just prophesied in the detailed answer to the Disciple's question of when He would return!  (Jesus never answers the first part - when the Temple would be destroyed.)

What we do know from prophecy is that the end will come like a flood.  Quickly, the abominable talking idol will be set up in the Temple.  And then, at the apex of the rise of the anti-Christ, who has been oppressing Christians for the whole of the first half of the one 'seven' - suddenly becomes an active killer, martyring hundreds of millions of innocent believers in his quest for idolatry.

God's response will not be long - as believers have bemoaned - and even the fifth Seal martyrs complain!
God the Father shortens the Great Tribulation and Jesus arrives on the "unknown" Day of the Lord.

Jesus did not talk about the First Jewish Revolt in the Olivet Discourse - He did not talk about how the Temple would be torn down.
He gave us the keystone passage which aligns Daniel 9:27 to the sixth Seal of Revelation.
Then He later reveals the true nature of the abomination of Daniel 9:27 as the talking image of Revelation 13:14-15.

Daniel 9:27 does not happen in a vacuum.  It is the seminal event of man which elicits a personal response from God.

The fulfillment of Daniel 9:24-27 happens from the fifth Seal until the seventh Trumpet sounds in Revelation chapters 6-11 (exclusive of the sidebar account).
The fulfillment of Daniel 9:24-27 happens in the sidebar account of the two halves of the one 'seven' in Revelation 11:1-13.
The fulfillment of Daniel 9:24-27 happens in the detailed parallel account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive).

[WilliamL]

12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

1. There was no covenant with Jerusalem, either made or spoken of in the text. Where did you get this?

I say ostensibly with Jerusalem, because any treaty which allows Israel to build on the Temple Mount is going to have to include Israel, and since this prophecy focuses on Daniel's "people" and the city, which just happens to be the capital of Israel, ostensibly by the subject matter, the treaty is outward from that point with many.

You did not say "ostensibly" in your original post.

Your whole argument is a reasoning from your conclusion, which is a form of circular reasoning. One needs to first prove one's conclusion, which you did not do. All of the rest of this post is likewise reasoning from your preconceived conclusions, none of them proven.  It is pure spec.

The potential problem with you and others who promote this whole chain of reasoning is, what if you are wrong? What if you are teaching people to look for a rebuilt Temple, and the restoration of blood sacrifice (as Dan. 9:27 would require you to do), and you are wrong? If you and others who teach these things convince people that Christ will not return before the Temple is rebuilt and/or blood sacrifices are re-instituted, but the Great Tribulation instead comes upon you all "like a snare," you will bear some responsibility for a deceptive doctrine that will have put milk-dependent babes in great jeopardy.

 

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Idols are always abominable to the Lord (Dt 7:25).
Worship can be considered abominable. (Exodus 8:26).
Defiling oneself and not keeping the Commandments are abominable - first and foremost is not worshiping the True God (Lev 18:20-30).
Abominable is any rejection of true worship of the Living God of Israel (Dt chapter 13).
Sin is abominable to the Lord (Dt 24:4).

Now those are some of the things which are abominable to the Lord - Strongs' 8441 - to'eba - abominable.

In Daniel 9:27, the word is siqqus - abomination - Strongs' 8251 - detestable thing, idol.

Here is what the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament says of this word.
.....This noun is always used in connection with idolatrous practices, either referring to the idols themselves as being abhorrent and detestable in God's sight, or to something associated with the idolatrous abomination (Jer 16:18; Exk 5:11; 7:20; II Chr 15:8, etc).  Not only are the idols an abomination, but they that worship them "become detestable like that which they love" (Hos 9:10), for they identify themselves with the idols.
.....Antiochus Epiphanes, as prophesied in Dan 11:31, and who is typical of Antichrist, set up an altar to, and image of, Zeus in the temple.  This is called the "abomination that causes desolation," a desecration of the altar which destroys its true purpose.  Just so will Antichrist establish an abomination in the sanctuary, a demonic counterfeit worship (Dan 9:27, 12:11).

So the text does describe an idol.

The erection of this talking image of the man who was wounded by a weapon of war (a gunshot will suffice to fulfill the prophecy as a rifle is the modern sword) and suffered a mortal wound but did not die - in the temple building, in the Holy Place - will cease the offering and sacrifice that goes on with the Temple.  Revelation, the Olivet Discourse and 2nd Th 2 are all just as concerned about this seminal apex of the anti-Christ's rise to assuming the godhead as it were, over the whole world.

And again, the plural in the Hebrew can also denote how great, or alternatively, how terrible something is.
 

Total spec. Going back to the Hebrew, we read "...And upon a wing/corner/extremity, appalling/desolating abominations [plural]..." Note first that these take place NOT in the sanctuary, but "upon a wing/corner/extremity עַל כְּנַף" 

כְּנַף is a noun, not a verb; this passage reasonably can describe the Romans sacrificing to their gods, including their aquilae/standards, upon the Antonia Fortress and/or in the Temple precincts on the northwest corner/wing/extremity of the Temple Mount. It DOES NOT FIT AT ALL with any abomination of desolation WITHIN the sanctuary.

However, שִׁקּוּצִים does is not always used to mean idolatry, despite what your reference book says:

Nahum 3:6 And I will cast abominable filth ^H8251 upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock.

Zech 9:7 And I will take away his blood out of his mouth, and his abominations ^H8251 from between his teeth: but he that remaineth, even he, shall be for our God, and he shall be as a governor in Judah, and Ekron as a Jebusite.

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The Zealots were less than honorable, and by the end after the siege reduced them to stealing so as not to starve, were hardly a fighting force.

This small skirmish hardly rises to even a battle; it pits Roman soldiers against religious zealots.  ...

To call the ensuing bloodbath, because it was so one-sided, "the most savage combat" and then say this satisfied the "desolating abominations" of siqqusim mesomen - hardly measures up to a blip in the horrendous acts man commits upon man in war.  ...This was a rather unspectacular siege in the history of siege warfare.

Finally, Roman ensigns, the standards they bore before their formations, are not idols.  They are symbols, but not actual representations of gods - of which Rome had many.  At no time did Titus or his troops erect any symbol upon which they directed worship and veneration in the Temple. ...

You hereby only prove you have not read Josephus's account of the tremendous battles to capture the Temple fortress, and of Roman customs. Such as, "1. AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple (24) and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them..."  War, VI.vi.1

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

19 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! ... 35 ...upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation. ... 38 Behold, your house [i.e. the Temple] is left to you desolate."

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. ... 22 “For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written [only in Daniel 9:26-27] may be fulfilled."

JESUS SAID THE PROPHECY THAT WAS WRITTEN WOULD BE "FULFILLED" IN "THIS GENERATION".

IF DANIEL 9:26-27 IS NOT WHERE THE FULFILLED PROPHECY OF JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE'S DESTRUCTION AND DESOLATION IS WRITTEN -- ENDING ALL MOSAIC-LAW BLOOD SACRIFICE AND MEAL OFFERING, 9:27 -- THEN SHOW US WHERE THAT WRITTEN PROPHECY IS!

Jesus gives us this salient and keystone linear narrative which details the "end" in the Olivet Discourse...

What you essentially state is that the Jewish War, which saw the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, was totally ignored in the prophecies of both Daniel and Jesus, and indeed in the whole Bible.

2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

 (Jesus never answers the first part - when the Temple would be destroyed.)

And I say he certainly did answer it, both in Matthew 23 and in Luke 21:20-24 and 19:41-44.

You say that the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem will be built and desolated and/or desecrated in the End Times before Jesus can return. I say that your only claimed witness, Daniel 9:27, stands without any second witness at all. You have built your whole doctrinal edifice upon a single claimed biblical witness, against all biblical standards required for evidence. (Neither Rev. 11 nor 2 Thes. 2 nor Matt. 24 speak of an End Time Temple in Jerusalem.)

Your view of Daniel 9:27 requires another Temple to have been built, besides the one mentioned in verse 26 -- but makes no mention of its building.

Your view of Daniel 9:27 requires blood-sacrifices to be instituted by the Jews in that Temple before the Abomination of Desolation takes place -- but no other biblical prophecy speaks of the re-institution of Temple blood sacrifices before the return of the Lord.

Where are your second witnesses for these things? You have none.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You did not say "ostensibly" in your original post.

Your whole argument is a reasoning from your conclusion, which is a form of circular reasoning. One needs to first prove one's conclusion, which you did not do. All of the rest of this post is likewise reasoning from your preconceived conclusions, none of them proven.  It is pure spec.

The potential problem with you and others who promote this whole chain of reasoning is, what if you are wrong? What if you are teaching people to look for a rebuilt Temple, and the restoration of blood sacrifice (as Dan. 9:27 would require you to do), and you are wrong? If you and others who teach these things convince people that Christ will not return before the Temple is rebuilt and/or blood sacrifices are re-instituted, but the Great Tribulation instead comes upon you all "like a snare," you will bear some responsibility for a deceptive doctrine that will have put milk-dependent babes in great jeopardy.

 

Ostensibly, because Gabriel laid that out as one of the two foci for the reason for the time period itself.

To say I am indulging in circular reasoning runs square into your assertion that everything was fulfilled in the first century.

What if I am wrong?  Do I base my life on my eschatology?  No.  Do we base our salvation upon our eschatology?  No.

What if you are wrong?  Will you still be in denial when Gentiles build the Temple as a quid-pro-quo to Israel's concessions to the terrorists in seeking peace?

As far as blood sacrifice - Neither you nor I have any power to stop the Sanhedrin, who have reconstituted themselves, from performing them.  They are actively seeking to rebuild the Temple, and they are actively equipping themselves to fulfill all the requirements of the sacrificial law system.  I believe they have even acquired a red heiffer and have its ashes now.  They are also actively seeking to find the Ark of the Covenant, and I have reason to believe that it has been found, but as it is such a lightening rod for Jewish worship - that it is being withheld until the time is right to whip up Jewish fervor for whatever concessions they might have to make in order to get the right to build upon the Temple Mount.

This is a specious argument I hear from Amillennialists all the time; that just by looking forward to a third Temple, that somehow Pre-Millennialists insist that we perform the sacrificial law!  Nothing of the sort!  This is a straw man argument!

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

If you and others who teach these things convince people that Christ will not return before the Temple is rebuilt...

Hey William - It is not I who taught that the abomination / desolation would be in the "Holy Place!"  Jesus did!  Paul did!  And the Father had Jesus reveal to John the nature of the abomination: the talking image of a beast of a man!

What I teach is patient endurance.  And because I believe, based on my sequence-of-events analysis of end-time linear narratives that we will all experience the (shortened) Great Tribulation - and that you don't have to "make it" through that period to "make it" into Heaven - I am more than prepared for it.

I am willing to lead those through the Great Tribulation by preparation or by faith - that if caught, they will not think they are always saved and so can worship the beast and try to save their own life.  I have told my family not to ever take the mark of the beast thinking that it doesn't matter because they have Jesus in their heart, and he'll understand because they are starving.  Better to die than to succumb.  But before that, I am already preparing for my family to weather the storm.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

What you essentially state is that the Jewish War, which saw the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, was totally ignored in the prophecies of both Daniel and Jesus, and indeed in the whole Bible.

No.

I stated that Jesus' statement was in the context of the detailed parallel portion of His answer to the Disciples as to when He would come again.

"This" generation is tied to "all these things" and those things are the events He listed as happening with the abomination of desolation being in the Holy Place!