Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Last Daze]

According to scripture, the rapture happens at the last trumpet, on the last day.  Any understanding of the timing of the rapture has to account for those aspects.

• In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:52
• For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

Those who approach the subject honestly  will give precedence to these two clearly stated scriptural timings.

1. What is the last trumpet that Paul was referencing?
2. What is the last day that Jesus was speaking of?

It only makes sense to start with the "known" when trying to figure out the "unknown."  Last trumpet, last day.  That's when the rapture takes place.

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

 

Completely ignoring the fact that God's Word tells us  the Jews are the only people in human history God has dealt with Face to Face .

 

What about Abraham? And Lot? And Noah? None were Jews.

And I think God wiped out a great many people in the flood that were not Jews, dealing with them "face to face".

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Agreed. I think.

I believe you are making a comparison but I don't understand.

Hi Diaste,

Mmm so sorry, I read your comments per usual too quickly and saw the word `escape` and thus I reacted......

Did have a good laugh at `Agreed. I think.` Laugh at myself that is.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

According to scripture, the rapture happens at the last trumpet, on the last day.  Any understanding of the timing of the rapture has to account for those aspects.

• In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:52
• For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

Those who approach the subject honestly  will give precedence to these two clearly stated scriptural timings.

1. What is the last trumpet that Paul was referencing?
2. What is the last day that Jesus was speaking of?

It only makes sense to start with the "known" when trying to figure out the "unknown."  Last trumpet, last day.  That's when the rapture takes place.

Hi Last Daze,

The `last trump` of God is the last word  He says to the Body `Come up here.`

And the `last day` is the last day of the earth as we know it. It is then that the `just` men and women of Heb. 11 will receive their reward.

regards, Marilyn.

[OldCoot]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

According to scripture, the rapture happens at the last trumpet, on the last day.  Any understanding of the timing of the rapture has to account for those aspects.

• In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:52
• For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

Those who approach the subject honestly  will give precedence to these two clearly stated scriptural timings.

1. What is the last trumpet that Paul was referencing?
2. What is the last day that Jesus was speaking of?

It only makes sense to start with the "known" when trying to figure out the "unknown."  Last trumpet, last day.  That's when the rapture takes place.

Well, the verse doesn't say that the rapture is on the last day, it says that Yeshua will raise him up on the last day.  That can have a very broad meaning.  Most likely being resurrected to eternal life.  Not everyone who is resurrected is "raptured" and not everyone who is "raptured" is resurrected.  And It could mean the last day of the period of Church on the earth, last day of the final tribulation period, or last day of the current earth before the new earth.  

Last trumpet can have a broad meaning also, most likely NOT the 7th trump of Revelation.  For one, the information regarding that was only given to Yeshua who revealed it to John via an angel.  Paul did not have access to that information when he was alive, so there has to be another meaning.  And there is.

Paul was one of the most educated Hebrew rabbinical scholars of his day, having been trained by Gamliel, one of the greatest sages of Hebrew antiquity.  So what would be his perspective.  Shavuot (pentecost) is called the First Trump in Hebrew rabbinical thinking.  The last day of Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) is called the Last Trump.  Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) is called the Great Trump.   Paul gives many allusions in scripture, as does Yeshua, that the removal of the righteous, no one can know the day or the hour.  Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) is called "the day that no man knows" because it falls on the first of the month, and that can only be determined when the new moon is certified.  And it is a 2 day event.  So it is the only feast day that fulfills the requirement of "no man knows the day or hour".

And the "great trumpet" is referenced in Matthew 24 where it specifically talks about the final gathering when Yeshua literally returns to earth to set up His kingdom. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by OldCoot
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[Unfailing Presence]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

10 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Completely ignoring the fact that God's Word tells us  the Jews are the only people in human history God has dealt with Face to Face .

 

What about Abraham? And Lot? And Noah? None were Jews.

And I think God wiped out a great many people in the flood that were not Jews, dealing with them "face to face".

When I say a " people " I am speaking in terms of nations . 

The Jews being the only nation in History to whom God physically manifested Himself to .

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

When I say a " people " I am speaking in terms of nations . 

The Jews being the only nation in History to whom God physically manifested Himself to .

Hmm...I don't know if it's true or not, because I have not checked scripture, that the Lord never appeared to any other nation. I wonder if there is an explicit statement to that effect? Can we deduce this 'non-appearance to any other nation' from evidence less direct, e.g., Is this implied?

I'm always a little suspicious of statements like the above. It feels like the proof is based in nonexistence of statements contradicting your assertion. I'm not saying you are wrong but when facts are not available in support can the conclusion be valid?

While there is a great deal of information in scripture, it certainly doesn't contain ALL information, and cannot possibly contain every action of our Lord. 

So if you can prove your assertion, "Jews being the only nation in History to whom God physically manifested Himself to ." from the scriptures.

[Diaste]

This is the perspective of Paul;

 

 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”

“Yes, Lord,” he answered.

11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”

13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands onSaul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem

Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?”22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

23 After many days had gone by, there was a conspiracy among the Jews to kill him, 24 but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. 25 But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall.

26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28 So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 29 He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews,[a] but they tried to kill him. 30 When the believers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.

Paul clearly DID NOT have the perspective of Jews and Jewish traditions after meeting Jesus on the road. If one reads ALL of Paul's letters we see his one and only perspective is Jesus Christ and none other.

It's manifestly obvious Paul knew about the end of the age, the return of Jesus, and the gathering, the beast, the rebuilt temple and the coming wrath. Paul learned from all this from revelation directly from Jesus. 

Galatians 1:11-12 

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:1 

"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord."

1 Corinthians 11:23

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night He was betrayed, took bread,

Ephesians 3:3-4

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Romans 16:25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Galatians 1:11-12

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 Galatians 1:16-17 

To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

In Jesus name, read the scriptures in their entirety and ask of God for the understanding, the one gives liberally to all.

 

[Unfailing Presence]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

13 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

When I say a " people " I am speaking in terms of nations . 

The Jews being the only nation in History to whom God physically manifested Himself to .

Hmm...I don't know if it's true or not, because I have not checked scripture, that the Lord never appeared to any other nation.

It is not primarily the fact that Israel is the only nation God appeared before , but mainly the reason He did so . 

So here you have two vital factors the fact that He did appear , and the purpose for which He did appear . 

Is there any possible reason you can formulate as to why He would appear to any other nation besides Israel ? 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

It is not primarily the fact that Israel is the only nation God appeared before , but mainly the reason He did so . 

So here you have two vital factors the fact that He did appear , and the purpose for which He did appear . 

Is there any possible reason you can formulate as to why He would appear to any other nation besides Israel ? 

I suppose I could come up with something but there just is no way to prove something did not happen. It's a proof by omission. I'm just saying we know God did appear to the nation of Israel because it's written. We cannot know that he did not appear to other nations unless we have a statement to that effect.

It's not meaningful in my mind whether or not God appeared to another nation or not. What is meaningful is that we are careful to follow factual statements to the conclusions. That should suffice to gain understanding.