What is the difference in the rapture and the second coming?

[Kan]

Shiloh,

you gave me the reference for Rev 20:8 and 9, about the New Jerusalem on earth not in heaven. 

True, so you are saying that the NJ will come down at the return of Christ or thereabouts, and I am saying the NJ comes down after the 1000 years, while the earth is still old and unrenewed.

 

Then the raised wicked gather arms and surround the city. Instead of a battle, there is a judgement, a confrontation and revealing of their own lives and that of Christ. Then they are destroyed, and the earth is renewed.

 

It remains for us to establish, when the NJ comes down to earth.

 

In chapter 19 we have the beast and all its associates destroyed because of the mark, which we understand as unfaithfulness and rebellion to God, In chapter 20:10 it says that the beast which owns the mark is thrown into the flames. 

 

So it was destroyed for enforcing the mark before the return of Christ, and it is destroyed after the 1000 years again. And in between it is dead.

 

If the saints were ruling on earth during the 1000 years, some say it is a partially renewed earth, some say it is a fully renewed earth.

 

But either way, are you saying that the wicked dead, including the system of the beast are raised in this occupied world, and then destroyed with the entire earth as it is burned up again? What happens to all the good for the earth that the saints worked on for a 1000 years?

 

A beast is an established political system in power or in rulership. You cannot have a "beast" without this organization. So in order for a beast to be raised, it must be raised as a political system in power.

If the saints are on earth at this time, then they must again be under the threat of this power. 

 

So we can say the multitudes of the wicked will be raised, but not a beast, if the saints are on earth.

 

If the wicked, without the beast system, are raised while the saints are on earth, the saints could not be immortal, but they would have to be as they are now - vulnerable and subject to abuse, because if they are immortalized, the wicked would die in their presence, and should any of the wicked even think about hurting them, all the saints would need to do is wave a hand at them and they will be thrown back like rag dolls. Like Jesus did when He was surrounded by the angry mob before His crucifixion.

 

So whatever world exists during the 1000 years, with immortalized saints on it, there would be no place for the wicked to be raised and judged, unless the world continues as it is, and unless the saints are poor mortals.

 

Whereas, if the earth is left desolate, as a prison for the evil angels, for 1000 years, the city comes down, the wicked are raised, Satan has someone to play with again, and rallies the armies against the city and they are destroyed, then the earth is renewed. 

 

No doubt the Bible teaches about the saints possessing the earth and reigning on earth forever,

but has the eternal reign of the saints on earth begun before that judgement at the end of the 1000 years or after?

Apparently not (Rev 22:5), only after the destruction of the wicked.

 

The reigning with Christ can only be established by what other scriptures say about that event, and Jesus said that with Him means in His Father's house. Which I am sure you agree, but the question is when does the NJ, the Father's house, come down?

[Marilyn C]

Yes,Jesus' reign over place does not necessitate that he be physically present.   I agree with that.   But that is not what is being argued.  Jesus doesn't have to be on the earth to rule over it.   But the Bible says He will be here physically on the earth ruling the world from a restored Israel and from the throne of David.

Hi shiloh357,

 

Have you ever read & understood what the prophet Jeremiah said concerning who would rule on earth under the rulership of the Lord Jesus Christ, who rules above every power & authority from the third heaven - God`s eternal throne? 

 

`Alas! For the day is great, so that none is like it; & it is the time of Jacob`s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "For it shall come to pass in that day," says the Lord of hosts, "that I will break his yoke from your neck, & will burst your bonds; foreigners shall no more enslave them. But they shall serve the Lord their God AND DAVID THEIR KING WHOM I WILL RAISE UP FOR THEM."  (Jer. 30: 7 - 9)

 

Marilyn.  

Edited July 18, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Guest shiloh357]

No, Kan...

 

Rev.20:8,9 isn't the  NJ.   It is the Messianic Kingdom where Jesus reigns from a restored nation of Israel.  Read your Bible.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Messianic Kingdom in Rev 20: 4-9 is on earth not in heaven.

[Marilyn C]

No, Kan...

 

Rev.20:8,9 isn't the  NJ.   It is the Messianic Kingdom where Jesus reigns from a restored nation of Israel.  Read your Bible.

No, shiloh357,

 

I gave you the scripture as to who will be ruling, (Jer. 30: 9) king David, but you have NOT given any scripture that says the Lord Jesus Christ will vacate His eternal seat of power in the third heaven to come & physically reign at His FOOTSTOOL!!!!

 

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

Yeah, Marilyn,

 

All it is saying is that this king will be like David who is a type and foreshadowing of Christ.   It is referencing Jesus who is David's son.  

[Kan]

At the coming of Christ the saints are taken to God, to be gathered to Him, and for example in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 it says that we will meet Him in the air. 

If Jesus is reigning on earth the saints will be suspended in the air for a 1000 years. Or does it mean to leave the earth and go to heaven?

 

Psalms 18:1-19 gives a description of that event. While the earth is destroyed the saints are rescued and taken into a safe place

[Marilyn C]

Yeah, Marilyn,

 

All it is saying is that this king will be like David who is a type and foreshadowing of Christ.   It is referencing Jesus who is David's son.

Hi shiloh357,

 

Have you looked at Ezekiel in relation to this king. He actually has sons on the earth. So I really don`t believe that this is referring to Jesus.

 

`Thus says the Lord God: " If the prince gives a gift of some of his inheritance to any of his sons, it shall belong to his sons; it is their possession by inheritance. But if he gives a gift of some of his inheritance to one of his servants, it shall be his until the year of liberty, after which it will return to the prince. But his inheritance shall belong to his sons; it shall become theirs.

 

Moreover the prince shall not take any of the people`s inheritance by evicting them from their property; he shall provide an inheritance for his sons from his own property, so that none of my people may be scattered from his property. (Ez. 46: 16 - 18)

 

Marilyn. 

Edited July 18, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Kan]

 

No, Kan...

 

Rev.20:8,9 isn't the  NJ.   It is the Messianic Kingdom where Jesus reigns from a restored nation of Israel.  Read your Bible.

No, shiloh357,

 

I gave you the scripture as to who will be ruling, (Jer. 30: 9) king David, but you have NOT given any scripture that says the Lord Jesus Christ will vacate His eternal seat of power in the third heaven to come & physically reign at His FOOTSTOOL!!!!

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Thanks. My Bible just says "the beloved city." 

Romans 9:25, 26 Paul quotes Hosea saying that the saints are beloved, which is the true house of God, which is tied in with the heavenly Jerusalem and not the earthly.

Galatians 4:24-31, shows that the two cities, the worldly Jerusalem and the heavenly represent the unbelieving and the believing respectively. 

 

Jesus did not promise an earthly kingdom, which even His disciples expected, and neither is He King of any earthly kingdom, which is what the unbelieving Jews and world still hold on to. 

[Marilyn C]

 

 

No, Kan...

 

Rev.20:8,9 isn't the  NJ.   It is the Messianic Kingdom where Jesus reigns from a restored nation of Israel.  Read your Bible.

No, shiloh357,

 

I gave you the scripture as to who will be ruling, (Jer. 30: 9) king David, but you have NOT given any scripture that says the Lord Jesus Christ will vacate His eternal seat of power in the third heaven to come & physically reign at His FOOTSTOOL!!!!

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Thanks. My Bible just says "the beloved city." 

Romans 9:25, 26 Paul quotes Hosea saying that the saints are beloved, which is the true house of God, which is tied in with the heavenly Jerusalem and not the earthly.

Galatians 4:24-31, shows that the two cities, the worldly Jerusalem and the heavenly represent the unbelieving and the believing respectively. 

 

Jesus did not promise an earthly kingdom, which even His disciples expected, and neither is He King of any earthly kingdom, which is what the unbelieving Jews and world still hold on to.

 

Hi Kan,

 

Yes the Body of Christ will be ruling from heaven. Now as we know the Lord Jesus Christ is king of other kings, & supreme ruler over all, so He will rule over the earth, Israel & the nations, put His rulership there, but His seat of power & eternal throne we know is in heaven, over all.

 

Marilyn.