WN: Vatican signs first treaty with 'State of Palestine'

[thereselittleflower]

It's fraudulent because in each of those cases, the stories were debunked.   The libels rely on people like you to believe them uncritically.  It's anti-Zionist, and since your anti-Zionist you buy into the story.   

 

The fact is that you haven't provided one shred of compelling or credible piece of evidence.   So far your "research" is sloppy and doesn't need to be taken seriously.   You will believe anything that is anti-Zionist no matter how far fetched or implausible it is, even after the story has been debunked.

 

  I can well imagine that there happen to be stories on both sides that get debunked.  That happens everywhere in all countries between conflicting parties.  However, just because SOME can be debunked does not mean that all can be debunked or that most can be debunked.   The lack of credibility in the few cases you mentioned cannot logically be AUTOMATICALLY  transferred to all cases.

 

I am very willing to listen.  I would truly appreciate you linking me to your sources, in each of those cases I presented above, showing when and how and by whom those stories were debunked.    

Edited July 5, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[thereselittleflower]

I don't think we misunderstand each other at all.   I never misunderstand anti-Zionism.   No other nation has inspired more OP-Eds, academic forums dedicated to scrutiny of its existence.   Israel is the ONLY nation where think-tank and universities hold forums to discuss Israel's legitimacy.   No one questions if China or Japan or Australia should exist.  

 

Israel is the ONLY nation in the world that receives that "honor."

 

 

Then how do you reason that such opinions presented by private individuals have any bearing on whether or not the State of Israel is recognized as a legitimate nation by the UN?   The UN is what matter in this instance.  I have not seen any movement from the UN questioning the right of the Nation of Israel to exist.

 

And I don't believe that Israel is alone in private parties expressing personal opinions about its right to exist.   

 

Jun 2, 2015 - Under the headline "Israel Has No Right To Exist - And Neither Does The U.S."

 

www.truthrevolt.org/news/stanford-students-israelus-have-no-right-exist

 

 

 

Israel Has a Right to Exist – and So Does the United States

 

http://stanfordreview.org/article/israel-has-a-right-to-exist-and-so-does-us/

 

 

both from Standford.  Gotta love freedom of speech. 

Edited July 5, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[Guest shiloh357]

The reason  they have bearing is that they do not occur in a vacuum.   The media and most of the international and academic community is fully vested in the Arab narrative of Israel's existence.   The UN is made up of nations, many if not all, Muslim who do not believe in the legitimacy of Israel's existence, as well as nonMuslims nations in the UN who sympathize with them.   The UN may not have presented  a formal resolution (yet) declaring that it no longer accepts Israel's existence, but many if not all of its member nations reject Israel's legitimacy and if a vote were taken to create a resolution that end, it would pass.

 

I am sure there are some people who hate the US enough that they want to topple it.   But Israel takes first place in that craziness.    The crazies who would love to see the US dismantled are exceeded only by crazy anti-Zionists. 

 

Anti-Zionism is predicated on a rejection of Israel's legitimacy to exist as a nation.

[Guest shiloh357]

No, there are not stories on each side that need to get debunked.   Israel isn't spreading blood libels about Palestinians.   The fact is that it only takes an irrational racist to put forth stories like cutting down 5,000 olive trees in one night, or that Israel somehow managed to poison the Palestinian same water source that also supplies Israel's drinking water, but yet doesn't poison Israelis.   It takes a racist to accuse the Jews of using the blood of Palestinian children to make unleavened bread.   It also takes someone equally racist to believe those stories are true.  And that is what we see in the international and academic communities.

 

Just click on the link below and look to the left and click on libels  or even better Google "PA revives medieval blood libels-Israel poisoned water at wells during Gaza war."

 

 

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=&doc_id=12893

[Steve_S]

 

I don't think we misunderstand each other at all.   I never misunderstand anti-Zionism.   No other nation has inspired more OP-Eds, academic forums dedicated to scrutiny of its existence.   Israel is the ONLY nation where think-tank and universities hold forums to discuss Israel's legitimacy.   No one questions if China or Japan or Australia should exist.  

 

Israel is the ONLY nation in the world that receives that "honor."

 

 

Then how do you reason that such opinions presented by private individuals have any bearing on whether or not the State of Israel is recognized as a legitimate nation by the UN?   The UN is what matter in this instance.  I have not seen any movement from the UN questioning the right of the Nation of Israel to exist.

 

And I don't believe that Israel is alone in private parties expressing personal opinions about its right to exist.   

 

Jun 2, 2015 - Under the headline "Israel Has No Right To Exist - And Neither Does The U.S."

 

www.truthrevolt.org/news/stanford-students-israelus-have-no-right-exist

 

 

 

Israel Has a Right to Exist – and So Does the United States

 

http://stanfordreview.org/article/israel-has-a-right-to-exist-and-so-does-us/

 

 

both from Standford.  Gotta love freedom of speech. 

 

 

Abstract academic arguments about this sort of thing are fine and good, but they simply do not reflect reality. The historical reality is that whoever has military dominion over an area is who is in possession of it. The UN's recognition or lack thereof of Israel or any other state has no bearing whatever on that state's existence or on their possession of any property they have taken at any point in time. The UN does not recognize Russia as the legitimate possessor of the Crimean peninsula either, but, who possesses the Crimean peninsula in reality? The UN stood by while the soviet union repeatedly ravaged parts of eastern europe that got out of line for over 30 years. It stood by while the soviet union invaded Afghanistan. All of these were against its charter. I mean, even practically, what authority does the UN have over any thing in light of this, to tell anyone, anything? Why should anyone even consider the opinion of such an organization? But this, quite honestly, is just a temporal argument.

 

As interesting as it is to point out how utterly useless the United Nations has been at making any decisions that were actually helpful to people, while simultaneously standing idly by and watching entire cultures get wrecked by powerful invaders, it is irrelevant in this case. The only One who has actual standing to decide who has a legitimate right to possess that land is God. God promised Abraham's descendants through Isaac and through Jacob that land in perpetuity because of Abraham's faithfulness. If these last 70 years has been Him returning them to that land, then there is absolutely nothing anyone will be able to do to stop it, period.

[thereselittleflower]

 

 

I don't think we misunderstand each other at all.   I never misunderstand anti-Zionism.   No other nation has inspired more OP-Eds, academic forums dedicated to scrutiny of its existence.   Israel is the ONLY nation where think-tank and universities hold forums to discuss Israel's legitimacy.   No one questions if China or Japan or Australia should exist.  

 

Israel is the ONLY nation in the world that receives that "honor."

 

 

Then how do you reason that such opinions presented by private individuals have any bearing on whether or not the State of Israel is recognized as a legitimate nation by the UN?   The UN is what matter in this instance.  I have not seen any movement from the UN questioning the right of the Nation of Israel to exist.

 

And I don't believe that Israel is alone in private parties expressing personal opinions about its right to exist.   

 

Jun 2, 2015 - Under the headline "Israel Has No Right To Exist - And Neither Does The U.S."

 

www.truthrevolt.org/news/stanford-students-israelus-have-no-right-exist

 

 

 

Israel Has a Right to Exist – and So Does the United States

 

http://stanfordreview.org/article/israel-has-a-right-to-exist-and-so-does-us/

 

 

both from Standford.  Gotta love freedom of speech. 

 

 

Abstract academic arguments about this sort of thing are fine and good, but they simply do not reflect reality. The historical reality is that whoever has military dominion over an area is who is in possession of it. The UN's recognition or lack thereof of Israel or any other state has no bearing whatever on that state's existence or on their possession of any property they have taken at any point in time. The UN does not recognize Russia as the legitimate possessor of the Crimean peninsula either, but, who possesses the Crimean peninsula in reality? The UN stood by while the soviet union repeatedly ravaged parts of eastern europe that got out of line for over 30 years. It stood by while the soviet union invaded Afghanistan. All of these were against its charter. I mean, even practically, what authority does the UN have over any thing in light of this, to tell anyone, anything? Why should anyone even consider the opinion of such an organization? But this, quite honestly, is just a temporal argument.

 

As interesting as it is to point out how utterly useless the United Nations has been at making any decisions that were actually helpful to people, while simultaneously standing idly by and watching entire cultures get wrecked by powerful invaders, it is irrelevant in this case. The only One who has actual standing to decide who has a legitimate right to possess that land is God. God promised Abraham's descendants through Isaac and through Jacob that land in perpetuity because of Abraham's faithfulness. If these last 70 years has been Him returning them to that land, then there is absolutely nothing anyone will be able to do to stop it, period.

 

 

 

I think you bring up a very interesting point, one which, for christians, cuts to the very heart of the issue.   Is this indeed God's doing?  Is this indeed God fulfilling His promise to Abraham and his descendants?

[thereselittleflower]

No, there are not stories on each side that need to get debunked.   Israel isn't spreading blood libels about Palestinians.   The fact is that it only takes an irrational racist to put forth stories like cutting down 5,000 olive trees in one night, or that Israel somehow managed to poison the Palestinian same water source that also supplies Israel's drinking water, but yet doesn't poison Israelis.   It takes a racist to accuse the Jews of using the blood of Palestinian children to make unleavened bread.   It also takes someone equally racist to believe those stories are true.  And that is what we see in the international and academic communities.

 

Just click on the link below and look to the left and click on libels  or even better Google "PA revives medieval blood libels-Israel poisoned water at wells during Gaza war."

 

 

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=&doc_id=12893

 

 

Shiloh, it's really hard to have a discussion with someone who ignores what the other says.  You denounced a so called claim that 5000 trees were cut down in one night.   I corrected you once already on this matter, yet your still making the same claim. No one can force you to read what I actually posted, but continuing to state this claim after being corrected signifies to me there is no real exchange of ideas or communication going on between us. This saddens me, but there is nothing I can personally do about it.

 

And again, giving one example of a debunked story does not automatically invalidate every other accusation against the actions of the zionist regime in Israel or illegal zionist settlers on land that is not theirs, or any other number of claims made against the same.

 

 

 

 

The reason  they have bearing is that they do not occur in a vacuum.   The media and most of the international and academic community is fully vested in the Arab narrative of Israel's existence.   The UN is made up of nations, many if not all, Muslim who do not believe in the legitimacy of Israel's existence, as well as nonMuslims nations in the UN who sympathize with them.   The UN may not have presented  a formal resolution (yet) declaring that it no longer accepts Israel's existence, but many if not all of its member nations reject Israel's legitimacy and if a vote were taken to create a resolution that end, it would pass.

 

I am sure there are some people who hate the US enough that they want to topple it.   But Israel takes first place in that craziness.    The crazies who would love to see the US dismantled are exceeded only by crazy anti-Zionists. 

 

Anti-Zionism is predicated on a rejection of Israel's legitimacy to exist as a nation.

 

 

I am truly sorry, but I simply find no logical, reasonable basis for such a conclusion.

 

I wish our conversation could have been more productive, but it may be best to simply put this discussion between us aside for now.

Edited July 5, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[FresnoJoe]

Anti-Zionism is predicated on a rejection of Israel's legitimacy to exist as a nation....

 

I am truly sorry, but I simply find no logical, reasonable basis for such a conclusion....

 

 

Logically

 

However, the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam but turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you. Deuteronomy 23:5 (NIV)

 

Jesus Would Be

 

Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’” Leviticus 26:44-45 (NIV)

 

The Basis For Israel's Existence

 

“At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”

 

This is what the Lord says:

“The people who survive the sword

    will find favor in the wilderness;

    I will come to give rest to Israel.”

 

The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying:

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;

    I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.

 

I will build you up again,

    and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt.

Again you will take up your timbrels

    and go out to dance with the joyful.

 

Again you will plant vineyards

    on the hills of Samaria;

the farmers will plant them

    and enjoy their fruit.

 

There will be a day when watchmen cry out

    on the hills of Ephraim,

‘Come, let us go up to Zion,

    to the Lord our God.’”

 

This is what the Lord says:

“Sing with joy for Jacob;

    shout for the foremost of the nations.

Make your praises heard, and say,

    ‘Lord, save your people,

    the remnant of Israel.’

 

See, I will bring them from the land of the north

    and gather them from the ends of the earth.

Among them will be the blind and the lame,

    expectant mothers and women in labor;

    a great throng will return.

 

They will come with weeping;

    they will pray as I bring them back.

I will lead them beside streams of water

    on a level path where they will not stumble,

because I am Israel’s father,

    and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

 

“Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;

    proclaim it in distant coastlands:

‘He who scattered Israel will gather them

    and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’

 

 For the Lord will deliver Jacob

    and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.

 

They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;

    they will rejoice in the bounty of the Lord—

the grain, the new wine and the olive oil,

    the young of the flocks and herds.

They will be like a well-watered garden,

    and they will sorrow no more.

 

Then young women will dance and be glad,

    young men and old as well.

I will turn their mourning into gladness;

    I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.

 

I will satisfy the priests with abundance,

    and my people will be filled with my bounty,”

declares the Lord.

 

This is what the Lord says:

“A voice is heard in Ramah,

    mourning and great weeping,

Rachel weeping for her children

    and refusing to be comforted,

    because they are no more.”

 

This is what the Lord says:

“Restrain your voice from weeping

    and your eyes from tears,

for your work will be rewarded,”

declares the Lord.

    “They will return from the land of the enemy.

 

So there is hope for your descendants,”

declares the Lord.

    “Your children will return to their own land.

 

 “I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning:

    ‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf,

    and I have been disciplined.

Restore me, and I will return,

    because you are the Lord my God.

 

After I strayed,

    I repented;

after I came to understand,

    I beat my breast.

I was ashamed and humiliated

    because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’

 

Is not Ephraim my dear son,

    the child in whom I delight?

Though I often speak against him,

    I still remember him.

Therefore my heart yearns for him;

    I have great compassion for him,”

declares the Lord. Jeremiah 31:1-20 (NIV)

 

As I See It

 

“How can I give you up, Ephraim?

    How can I hand you over, Israel?

How can I treat you like Admah?

    How can I make you like Zeboyim?

My heart is changed within me;

    all my compassion is aroused.

 

I will not carry out my fierce anger,

    nor will I devastate Ephraim again.

For I am God, and not a man—

    the Holy One among you.

    I will not come against their cities.

 

They will follow the Lord;

    he will roar like a lion.

When he roars,

    his children will come trembling from the west.

 

They will come from Egypt,

    trembling like sparrows,

    from Assyria, fluttering like doves.

I will settle them in their homes,”

    declares the Lord. Hosea 11:8-11 (NIV)

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING

 

For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? Romans 11:15 (ESV)

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

I am not ignoring what you have said.   I am simply addressing the racist nature of your claims, littleflower.     I am in no need of correction from someone like you.   You tried to post a libel that you didn't fact check because smearing Israel was more important than getting your facts straight.   

 

You posted a story in an attempt to make it appear that Zionists had committed a hate crime.   I fact checked the story and discovered that it was a hoax and a lie that had been perpetrated by the Palestinians.   YOU can't seem to come to grips with the fact that you got duped and I pointed to the fact that the Palestinians have a habit of making outlandish claims that don't make any sense and ususally end up being debunked.

 

What I find astonishing is that you are actually prepared to believe these stories.

 

These debunked libels don't invalidate any legitimate criticism of Israel but they do demonstrate the irrational, racist heart of anti-Zionists.   Anti-Zionists like you will grab on any story, no matter how implausible and cling to it if it smears Israel.   Anti-Zionists never engage in legitimate criticism of Israel.   They simply promote their rejection of Israel's legitimacy.

 

 

The fact is that the Land the settlers are on is Jewish Land.  The West Bank is biblical Judea and Samaria.  It is biblically the land promised to the tribe of Judah, as is Gaza.  It is the Arabs who are the squatters.   The settlers are not there illegally despite what you or anyone else says.  

 

God's word supersedes international law and the land belongs to the Jews by divine decree and no pathetic earthly power can override God's eternal covenant with Abraham.

 

Anti-Zionism is a rejection, not only of Israel's right to exist, it is also a rejection of God's decision to give that Land to the Jewish people.   To be an anti-Zionist is to reject the authority of God's word.

 

You may want to put this discussion aside, and that's fine, but if you continue to post anti-Zionist posts, I will continue to monitor your activity and respond to those posts and I will make sure that any anti-Zionist claims you make are countered by the truth so that no one agrees with you or is led astray by your poisonous anti-Semitic claims.   You have shown an ugly heart toward Israel and willingness to be outlandish lies and I don't need for you to respond to me or to anything I post.   It would actually be easier on me if you didn't respond. It is impossible to have "productive" conversations when anti-Zionists promote so much hate.

[thereselittleflower]

I am not ignoring what you have said.   I am simply addressing the racist nature of your claims, littleflower.    I am in no need of correction from someone like you.   You tried to post a libel that you didn't fact check because smearing Israel was more important than getting your facts straight.   

 

You posted a story in an attempt to make it appear that Zionists had committed a hate crime.   I fact checked the story and discovered that it was a hoax and a lie that had been perpetrated by the Palestinians.   YOU can't seem to come to grips with the fact that you got duped and I pointed to the fact that the Palestinians have a habit of making outlandish claims that don't make any sense and ususally end up being debunked.

 

What I find astonishing is that you are actually prepared to believe these stories.

 

These debunked libels don't invalidate any legitimate criticism of Israel but they do demonstrate the irrational, racist heart of anti-Zionists.   Anti-Zionists like you will grab on any story, no matter how implausible and cling to it if it smears Israel.   Anti-Zionists never engage in legitimate criticism of Israel.   They simply promote their rejection of Israel's legitimacy.

 

 

The fact is that the Land the settlers are on is Jewish Land.  The West Bank is biblical Judea and Samaria.  It is biblically the land promised to the tribe of Judah, as is Gaza.  It is the Arabs who are the squatters.   The settlers are not there illegally despite what you or anyone else says.  

 

God's word supersedes international law and the land belongs to the Jews by divine decree and no pathetic earthly power can override God's eternal covenant with Abraham.

 

Anti-Zionism is a rejection, not only of Israel's right to exist, it is also a rejection of God's decision to give that Land to the Jewish people.   To be an anti-Zionist is to reject the authority of God's word.

 

You may want to put this discussion aside, and that's fine, but if you continue to post anti-Zionist posts, I will continue to monitor your activity and respond to those posts and I will make sure that any anti-Zionist claims you make are countered by the truth so that no one agrees with you or is led astray by your poisonous anti-Semitic claims.   You have shown an ugly heart toward Israel and willingness to be outlandish lies and I don't need for you to respond to me or to anything I post.   It would actually be easier on me if you didn't respond. It is impossible to have "productive" conversations when anti-Zionists promote so much hate.

 

My dear Shiloh, I see nothing to substantiate your claims, either of what has happened in history or what has transpired in our discussion here.   I had truly hoped to have an intelligent conversation with you, but it has devolved into illogical hate speech and villification and demonization of those who simply do not share your particular viewpoint.  I have never found true honesty in such rhetoric, and I do not find it here either.   We are called to love all, especially our enemies.  I have not seen one ounce of this love Christ calls us to in your words towards and about the Palestinians, many of whom are our brothers and sisters in Christ.    The only hate I've seen in this thread has sadly come from your posts.   Such is the fruit of zionism.

Edited July 5, 2015 by thereselittleflower