Guest shiloh357 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I accept what apocalyptic literature is, but that does not mean that I have to accept the way YOU approach it. Revelation is not 100% symbolic. You have a, for lack of a better way of saying it, very mystical approach to Revelation where everything is symbolism, and that is not a healthy way to do exegesis. You are approaching the text with pre-made assumptions and you filter the text through those assumptions. You have decided that everything is symbolic and you mold the Bible around what your preconceived notions are prepared to accept, rather than letting the Bible tell you what is or is not necessarily symbolic. What's worse is that you are deciding not only what is symbolic, but you are also deciding what it is symbolic of, instead of letting the text dictate that. That is subjective, and not objective and basically, your approach makes the Bible servant to the reader. In your approach, the Bible means what the readers says it means, instead of letting the author speak for himself. It is subjective, it is sloppy and frankly, it is almost occultic the way you treat the book of Revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted July 20, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2015 I accept what apocalyptic literature is, but that does not mean that I have to accept the way YOU approach it. Revelation is not 100% symbolic. You have a, for lack of a better way of saying it, very mystical approach to Revelation where everything is symbolism, and that is not a healthy way to do exegesis. You are approaching the text with pre-made assumptions and you filter the text through those assumptions. You have decided that everything is symbolic and you mold the Bible around what your preconceived notions are prepared to accept, rather than letting the Bible tell you what is or is not necessarily symbolic. What's worse is that you are deciding not only what is symbolic, but you are also deciding what it is symbolic of, instead of letting the text dictate that. That is subjective, and not objective and basically, your approach makes the Bible servant to the reader. In your approach, the Bible means what the readers says it means, instead of letting the author speak for himself. It is subjective, it is sloppy and frankly, it is almost occultic the way you treat the book of Revelation. I'm not expecting anyone to accept what apocalyptic literature is based on my own authority. I haven't represented anything I have said as being from my own authority. Is it not my authority you argue against. It is the authority of the experts in the field you are arguing against. You accept the Apocalypse of John is of the Apocalyptic genre by your own admission. But you refuse to accept what that means and offer no credible alternative or authoritative source for your claims. For myself, I will take what the experts say over what someone with no expertise in this field has to say, who refuses to accept what the genre is and is not according to the experts, and can produce no credible evidence to support their claim against what these experts tell us, relying on their own non-expert authority instead. It's up to others to decide who they will listen to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I am not arguing against what apocalyptic is. I don't have to accept that the use of every number, every color every single thing mentioned in Revelation to accept that it is apocalyptic. That's where you make your mistake. There are experts and there are experts. You seem to be of the opinion that all experts share your view when there are myriads of theologians and scholars and "experts" who don't. So the whole "appealing to authority" fallacy won't work here. You are nothing but a cut and paste parrot. All you can do is regurgitate what your so-called "experts" say. You don't have any practical or experiential knowledge of exegesis. Anyone can do what you do. It takes skills you don't have to real exegesis. It is because you are simply parroting someone else's talking points that you can't do actual exegesis, or prove your case with reposting the same warmed over stew repeatedly, ad nauseum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted July 21, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.16 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted July 21, 2015 You are not an expert in apocalyptic literature.... I will rely on those who are.... It's up to others to decide who they will listen to.... ~ The Expert The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:1-2 (NIV) ~ Beloved, Please Don't Let Evil Men Steal I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. Revelation 22:18-19 (NIV) Your Birthright Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NIV) Love, Your Brother Joe ~ All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. Psalms 119:160 (NIV) The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword, and the Christian’s character. Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed. CHRIST is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment and will be remembered forever. It Involves the highest responsibility, will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents. From The Front Of My Gideon New Testament Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Having examined and reviewed the material you offer regarding different types of Zionism. I should point out that they are not different definitions of Zionism. Zionism is what it is. The various "types" of Zionism you offered don't really redefine what Zoinism is; they are simply different types of approaches to the same goal. So Zionism is what I showed you that it is and given that definition, it is not the evil monster you and those who seek to destroy Israel, make it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted July 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2015 Having examined and reviewed the material you offer regarding different types of Zionism. I should point out that they are not different definitions of Zionism. Zionism is what it is. The various "types" of Zionism you offered don't really redefine what Zoinism is; they are simply different types of approaches to the same goal. So Zionism is what I showed you that it is and given that definition, it is not the evil monster you and those who seek to destroy Israel, make it out to be. I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Zionism is what it is. I don't get to define it and thankfully, you don't get to redefine it. Your view of Zionism is skewed by the majority of Jew hating websites that you get your information from. You can disagree, but you're wrong and I am right. You have not presented ONE Zionist website that offers any different definition of Zionism than what I presented, but you're not going to let that stop you from believing and siding with the haters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted July 22, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2015 Actually I did, unless you don't consider the Jewish Virtual Library valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Most of the support you draw from are from anti-Israel sites who advance the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of the Jews. Those are the sites that inform your anti-Zionism. That you quote a page or two from from the Jewish virtual library is meaningless. The JVL didn't really make your particular case that there are different types of Zionism. It wasn't offering any different kind of definition of Zionism that I cited. A closer examination of the JVL page you quoted only reflected different types of Zionist groups. There was no alternative definition of Zionism offered, because no such definition really exists among Zionists. YOU operate from a definition of Zionism that is offered up by racist anti-Zionists on their sites who hate Jews and want to see Israel destroyed. Yet you can't seem to fathom why I see your anti-Zionism as racist. You are filtering Zionist websites like the JVL through your hatred of Israel and the brand of anti-Zionism that you adhere to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted July 24, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 24, 2015 Shiloh, I am glad we can agree on some things, and saddened we cannot agree on this. The Jewish Virtual Library describes a spiritual zionism that does not seek to a national return to the ancient Jewish home to reestablish itself as a nation. In fact it speaks against it. That is a diametrically opposed form of zionism to that of the political zionism today. I heartly support spiritual zionism as described in this entry in the Jewish Virtual Library. I cannot condone or support the other, nationalistic forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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