The Lord Jesus Christ

August 28, 2015

The one thing we MUST not forget is this: In the process of “becoming Man,” the Word GAVE UP certain “attributes” (to use a theological term), those traits that are ATTRIBUTED to God (as opposed to “characteristics” that are traits “characterized” by human beings). By the mere choice of becoming confined to human flesh, He suddenly had physical dimensions, and with those physical dimensions, physical limitations!
That is wrong. Jesus gave up divine prerogatives, but Jesus did NOT give up divine attributes. Jesus did not give up anything that made Him God.
The thing I do NOT see in the Scriptures is that He re-acquired His attributes after His resurrection or even after His ascension! He STILL has His body (albeit a super-strong, immortal, incorruptible body that glows, capable of passing through locked doors or ascending into the sky). Thus, He STILL has some limitations by virtue of having a body! The incarnation was a ONE-WAY TRIP! Thus, He became - and will always remain - the "SON OF GOD!” John 1 does NOT say, “In the beginning was the Son.” It says “In the beginning was the WORD!"
Jesus has no limitations because Jesus is God. It's only a fleshly, unregenerate mind that says Jesus is not God and that Jesus is limited by having a physical body. Jesus temporarily submitted to those limitations while on earth, but those limitations no longer apply.
See, I’m not trying to call anyone here on this forum a liar, an idiot, or even generally wrong! I’m trying to help you all learn not to lean too heavily on the theological doctrine of the “Trinity!” Instead of leaning on theology, lean on GOD’S WORD, the BIBLE!
The Bible demonstrates the Trinity. It is there in function if not in form.
Shalom, shiloh357.
Hmmm.... So, tell me. How was and is Yeshua` “OMNIPRESENT,” being confined to a body? (Heb. 10:1-18; John 1:14-Rev. 21:23 "the glory of God did lighten it”, Greek “efootisen” from “footizoo,” and “the Lamb is the light thereof,” Greek “luchnos.")
Hebrews 10:1-18
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
KJV
John 1:14-18
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
KJV
Note that it does NOT say “the glory of the Father”; it says “the glory as of the only begotten [Son] of the Father!” He is also “in the bosom (Greek: of the Father"
NT:5461 footizoo (fo-tid'-zo); from NT:5457; to shed rays, i.e. to shine or (transitively) to brighten up (literally or figuratively): KJV - enlighten, illuminate, (bring to, give) light, make to see.
NT:3088 luchnos (lookh'-nos); from the base of NT:3022; a portable lamp or other illuminator (literally or figuratively): KJV - candle, light.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
How was and is Yeshua` “OMNISCIENT” when He didn’t know when He would return but His Father, GOD, did? (Mark 13:32.)
Mark 13:32
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
KJV
How was and is Yeshua` “OMNIPOTENT” when He turns over His empire to His Father? (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
These are attributes He no longer demonstrates.
You said, “It's only a fleshly, unregenerate mind that says Jesus is not God and that Jesus is limited by having a physical body.” I say that it’s only a deluded mind that says that Yeshua` is NOT limited by BEING a physical body and a misguided mind that looks to Yeshua` only instead of to God, His Father, who raised Him from the dead!
Finally, how can the Trinity be in the Bible in function and NOT be in form?! That’s just mental gymnastics. You’ve deluded yourself with this theology of the Trinity to the point that you cannot accept the Scriptures as they are written!

To answer your first question, Jesus can be everywhere and is everywhere through the Holy Spirit. Remember they are one God. Jesus is able to hear every prayer and intercede for all of us. Jesus can hear, remember and pray for the millions and millions of people who praying all over the world at this very moment.

Jesus also promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us. How can Jesus keep that promise to all believers if he is limited in space to a body? Jesus is God and so nothing like this is impossible for him. It may appear impossible to someone like you, but you don't really know him.

All of His divine attributes are fully functioning right now and if you had the Holy Spirit, you would know that. Your views are fleshly and based on a lack of any real relationship with God.

Trinity is demonstrated in function in that we see it working, while it is not present in form in that we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible. The only one being delusional is someone who thinks he is a "Messianic Jew" but who teaches what Messianic Jews and REAL Christ followers reject.

Retrobyter · August 28, 2015

The one thing we MUST not forget is this: In the process of “becoming Man,” the Word GAVE UP certain “attributes” (to use a theological term), those traits that are ATTRIBUTED to God (as opposed to “characteristics” that are traits “characterized” by human beings). By the mere choice of becoming confined to human flesh, He suddenly had physical dimensions, and with those physical dimensions, physical limitations!
That is wrong.   Jesus gave up divine prerogatives, but Jesus did NOT give up divine attributes.   Jesus did not give up anything that made Him God.
The thing I do NOT see in the Scriptures is that He re-acquired His attributes after His resurrection or even after His ascension! He STILL has His body (albeit a super-strong, immortal, incorruptible body that glows, capable of passing through locked doors or ascending into the sky). Thus, He STILL has some limitations by virtue of having a body! The incarnation was a ONE-WAY TRIP! Thus, He became - and will always remain - the "SON OF GOD!” John 1 does NOT say, “In the beginning was the Son.” It says “In the beginning was the WORD!"
Jesus has no limitations because Jesus is God. It's only a fleshly, unregenerate mind that says Jesus is not God and that Jesus is limited by having a physical body.   Jesus temporarily submitted to those limitations while on earth, but those limitations no longer apply.
See, I’m not trying to call anyone here on this forum a liar, an idiot, or even generally wrong! I’m trying to help you all learn not to lean too heavily on the theological doctrine of the “Trinity!” Instead of leaning on theology, lean on GOD’S WORD, the BIBLE!
The Bible demonstrates the Trinity. It is there in function if not in form.
Shalom, shiloh357.
Hmmm.... So, tell me. How was and is Yeshua` “OMNIPRESENT,” being confined to a body? (Heb. 10:1-18; John 1:14-Rev. 21:23 "the glory of God did lighten it”, Greek “efootisen” from “footizoo,” and “the Lamb is the light thereof,” Greek “luchnos.")
Hebrews 10:1-18
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
KJV
John 1:14-18
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
KJV
Note that it does NOT say “the glory of the Father”; it says “the glory as of the only begotten [Son] of the Father!” He is also “in the bosom (Greek: of the Father"
NT:5461 footizoo (fo-tid'-zo); from NT:5457; to shed rays, i.e. to shine or (transitively) to brighten up (literally or figuratively): KJV - enlighten, illuminate, (bring to, give) light, make to see.
NT:3088 luchnos (lookh'-nos); from the base of NT:3022; a portable lamp or other illuminator (literally or figuratively): KJV - candle, light.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
How was and is Yeshua` “OMNISCIENT” when He didn’t know when He would return but His Father, GOD, did? (Mark 13:32.)
Mark 13:32
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
KJV
How was and is Yeshua` “OMNIPOTENT” when He turns over His empire to His Father? (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
These are attributes He no longer demonstrates.
You said, “It's only a fleshly, unregenerate mind that says Jesus is not God and that Jesus is limited by having a physical body.” I say that it’s only a deluded mind that says that Yeshua` is NOT limited by BEING a physical body and a misguided mind that looks to Yeshua` only instead of to God, His Father, who raised Him from the dead!
Finally, how can the Trinity be in the Bible in function and NOT be in form?! That’s just mental gymnastics. You’ve deluded yourself with this theology of the Trinity to the point that you cannot accept the Scriptures as they are written!
To answer your first question, Jesus can be everywhere and is everywhere through the Holy Spirit. Remember they are one God.   Jesus is able to hear every prayer and intercede for all of us.   Jesus can hear, remember and pray for the millions and millions of people who praying all over the world at this very moment.
Jesus also promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us.   How can Jesus keep that promise to all believers if he is limited in space to a body?   Jesus is God and so nothing like this is impossible for him.   It may appear impossible to someone like you, but you don't really know him.
All of His divine attributes are fully functioning right now and if you had the Holy Spirit, you would know that.   Your views are fleshly and based on a lack of any real relationship with God.
Trinity is demonstrated in function in that we see it working, while it is not present in form in that we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible. The only one being delusional is someone who thinks he is a "Messianic Jew" but who teaches what Messianic Jews and REAL Christ followers reject.

Okay, how much do you study the Word instead of the theology behind what you believe? I’ve gotta tell ya, you’ve forgotten what some Scriptures say and have got some of the Scriptures wrong!

John 14:12-21

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
KJV

Acts 1:6-12

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

Yeshua` went away! How is that even possible if He was “omnipresent?” He bodily and physically left this earth and went into the sky until a cloud hid Him from their view. When He promised them that He would come to them in John 14:18 above, He was NOT saying that He was returning immediately; He was talking about His FUTURE coming in the clouds! Verses 19 and 20 and 21 are the key: “because I live, ye shall live also,” and “At that day,...” and “I ... will manifest myself to them." He is talking about the day of OUR resurrection!

He didn’t come back “spiritually” in some “invisible” sense! He has YET to return! He sent them the Ruach haQodesh Elohim - the Holy Spirit of God - to be their Comforter until His return! Why would He need to do that IF He was indeed “omnipresent”, “present everywhere?”

You said, “Jesus is able to hear every prayer and intercede for all of us. Jesus can hear, remember and pray for the millions and millions of people who [are] praying all over the world at this very moment.” Book, chapter and verse, please. GOD, who is Yeshua`s Father, is able to do all that, but how do you support that YESHUA` can do all that? See, you’re starting with the ending, like Ezra did. You can’t use your assumption to prove your assumption! That’s called “circular reasoning,” and it's a logical fallacy! And, if you’re saying that “Jesus can ... pray for the millions and millions of people,” to whom is Yeshua` praying? Why should He NEED to if He is God on par with His Father, since they are ONE GOD, and both Persons are OMNISCIENT, ALL-KNOWING?

Next, you said, “Jesus also promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us.” Ummm... Sorry, that’s NOT what the Scriptures say!

Hebrews 13:4-5

4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
KJV

which has led the translators of the NIV to say,...

Hebrews 13:4-5

4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,

"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."
NIV

The Greek says,...

Pros Hebraious 13:4-5

4 Timios ho gamos en pasin kai kee koitee amiantos, pornous gar kai moichous krinei ho Theos.

5 Afilarguros ho tropos arkoumenoi tois parousin; autos gar eireeken, Ou mee se anoo oud’ ou mee se egkatalipoo,

The Greek New Testament, UBS

And, this is a quotation from the Tanakh (the OT):

Deuteronomy 31:1-6

1 And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.

2 And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan.

3 The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said.

4 And the LORD shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed.

5 And the LORD shall give them up before your face, that ye may do unto them according unto all the commandments which I have commanded you.

6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
KJV

So, how do you deduce that “Jesus” (Yeshua`) said this without first assuming that “Jesus" is this “LORD thy God?"

Oh, and I just LOVE how you’ve set yourself up as my “judge, jury, and executioner” with your statements, “It may appear impossible to someone like you, but you don't really know him. // All of His divine attributes are fully functioning right now and if you had the Holy Spirit, you would know that. Your views are fleshly and based on a lack of any real relationship with God.” Just who do you think YOU are, bubba?!

Romans 14:4

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
KJV

Don’t be so quick to judge, bubba!

Matthew 7:1-5

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
KJV

You’ve got a LOT of nerve, bro’, to pass judgment on others without considering yourself first!

You said, “Trinity is demonstrated in function in that we see it working, while it is not present in form in that we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible.” Well, "YOU BELIEVE," you mean, “that Trinity is demonstrated in function [in the Bible] in that we see it working,” but that is your INTERPRETATION of what you read in the Bible! It ought to give you a clue that “we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible”!

And, then you’ve got to go "being all that" again: “The only one being delusional is someone who thinks he is a "Messianic Jew" but who teaches what Messianic Jews and REAL Christ followers reject.” Really, you should consider whether a true follower of the REAL Messiah would talk like that!

Edited August 28, 2015 by Retrobyter
adding color to quoted material

AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken · August 28, 2015

"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."

August 28, 2015

Okay, how much do you study the Word instead of the theology behind what you believe? I’ve gotta tell ya, you’ve forgotten what some Scriptures say and have got some of the Scriptures wrong!

Everyone has theology, including you. Everything you have posted is theology.

Yeshua` went away! How is that even possible if He was “omnipresent?” He bodily and physically left this earth and went into the sky until a cloud hid Him from their view. When He promised them that He would come to them in John 14:18 above, He was NOT saying that He was returning immediately; He was talking about His FUTURE coming in the clouds! Verses 19 and 20 and 21 are the key: “because I live, ye shall live also,” and “At that day,...” and “I ... will manifest myself to them." He is talking about the day of OUR resurrection!
He didn’t come back “spiritually” in some “invisible” sense! He has YET to return! He sent them the Ruach haQodesh Elohim - the Holy Spirit of God - to be their Comforter until His return! Why would He need to do that IF He was indeed “omnipresent”, “present everywhere?”
You said, “Jesus is able to hear every prayer and intercede for all of us. Jesus can hear, remember and pray for the millions and millions of people who [are] praying all over the world at this very moment.” Book, chapter and verse, please. GOD, who is Yeshua`s Father, is able to do all that, but how do you support that YESHUA` can do all that? See, you’re starting with the ending, like Ezra did. You can’t use your assumption to prove your assumption! That’s called “circular reasoning,”

I didn't say Jesus was omnipresent during His earthly ministry. I said that HE is NOW in the person of the Holy Spirit who has baptized each of us into Christ (Rom. 6:3-4).

According to John 15, Jesus abides in us. Each of us are in Him and He is in each of us. Jesus abides in us in the Person of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit helps us when we pray and Jesus is our advocate before the Father. He is the advocate of every believer and He is the High Priest for every believer and He is making intercession for all of us individually and corporately. That's pretty basic Bible teaching. Any real Christian knows that.

and it's a logical fallacy! And, if you’re saying that “Jesus can ... pray for the millions and millions of people,” to whom is Yeshua` praying? Why should He NEED to if He is God on par with His Father, since they are ONE GOD, and both Persons are OMNISCIENT, ALL-KNOWING?

Jesus is praying to the Father. Jesus God the Son and as the Son He prays s to the Father. Jesus is not doing that because the Father needs him to. Jesus is doing that for our benefit. We need Him to be our advocate and High Priest.

Next, you said, “Jesus also promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us.” Ummm... Sorry, that’s NOT what the Scriptures say!

Jesus is the object through which the Scriptures are interpreted. Jesus is the reflection of the Father's will and His divine nature. What true about the Father in that regard is true about Jesus, too. Jesus also said that he would be with us even to the end of the world (Matt. 28: 20)

So, how do you deduce that “Jesus” (Yeshua`) said this without first assuming that “Jesus" is this “LORD thy God?"

The NT is pretty good at establishing Jesus as God in the OT (John 1:1-3, Col 1: 15-18, and Heb. 1:1-3, 8). Jesus, according to the NT is the Creator in Genesis. Jesus is God.

You’ve got a LOT of nerve, bro’, to pass judgment on others without considering yourself first!

There is no heresy or false doctrines in my posts YOU are the one rejecting Jesus, not me.

You said, “Trinity is demonstrated in function in that we see it working, while it is not present in form in that we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible.” Well, "YOU BELIEVE," you mean, “that Trinity is demonstrated in function [in the Bible] in that we see it working,” but that is your INTERPRETATION of what you read in the Bible! It ought to give you a clue that “we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible”!

The word "grandfather" isn't in the Bible either, but we can see them in the Bible. The word Trinity is not used because it is based in Latin not in Greek or Hebrew. But Jesus said he wsa sent by the Father and Jesus said that He would personally send the Holy Spirit. So they are three separate persons all with the same divine attributes.

And, then you’ve got to go "being all that" again: “The only one being delusional is someone who thinks he is a "Messianic Jew" but who teaches what Messianic Jews and REAL Christ followers reject.” Really, you should consider whether a true follower of the REAL Messiah would talk like that!

So you can accuse ME of being deluded and that's okay. What I said is pretty light compared to what Jesus said to His opponents. I know lots of Messies and they don't agree with you at all.

Qnts2 · August 30, 2015

To answer your first question, Jesus can be everywhere and is everywhere through the Holy Spirit. Remember they are one God.   Jesus is able to hear every prayer and intercede for all of us.   Jesus can hear, remember and pray for the millions and millions of people who praying all over the world at this very moment.
Jesus also promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us.   How can Jesus keep that promise to all believers if he is limited in space to a body?   Jesus is God and so nothing like this is impossible for him.   It may appear impossible to someone like you, but you don't really know him.
All of His divine attributes are fully functioning right now and if you had the Holy Spirit, you would know that.   Your views are fleshly and based on a lack of any real relationship with God.
Trinity is demonstrated in function in that we see it working, while it is not present in form in that we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible. The only one being delusional is someone who thinks he is a "Messianic Jew" but who teaches what Messianic Jews and REAL Christ followers reject.
Okay, how much do you study the Word instead of the theology behind what you believe? I’ve gotta tell ya, you’ve forgotten what some Scriptures say and have got some of the Scriptures wrong!
John 14:12-21
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
KJV
Acts 1:6-12
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV
Yeshua` went away! How is that even possible if He was “omnipresent?” He bodily and physically left this earth and went into the sky until a cloud hid Him from their view. When He promised them that He would come to them in John 14:18 above, He was NOT saying that He was returning immediately; He was talking about His FUTURE coming in the clouds! Verses 19 and 20 and 21 are the key: “because I live, ye shall live also,” and “At that day,...” and “I ... will manifest myself to them." He is talking about the day of OUR resurrection!
He didn’t come back “spiritually” in some “invisible” sense! He has YET to return! He sent them the Ruach haQodesh Elohim - the Holy Spirit of God - to be their Comforter until His return! Why would He need to do that IF He was indeed “omnipresent”, “present everywhere?”
You said, “Jesus is able to hear every prayer and intercede for all of us.   Jesus can hear, remember and pray for the millions and millions of people who [are] praying all over the world at this very moment.” Book, chapter and verse, please. GOD, who is Yeshua`s Father, is able to do all that, but how do you support that YESHUA` can do all that? See, you’re starting with the ending, like Ezra did. You can’t use your assumption to prove your assumption! That’s called “circular reasoning,” and it's a logical fallacy! And, if you’re saying that “Jesus can ... pray for the millions and millions of people,” to whom is Yeshua` praying? Why should He NEED to if He is God on par with His Father, since they are ONE GOD, and both Persons are OMNISCIENT, ALL-KNOWING?
Next, you said, “Jesus also promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us.” Ummm... Sorry, that’s NOT what the Scriptures say!
Hebrews 13:4-5
4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
KJV
which has led the translators of the NIV to say,...
Hebrews 13:4-5
4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."
NIV
The Greek says,...
Pros Hebraious 13:4-5
4 Timios ho gamos en pasin kai kee koitee amiantos, pornous gar kai moichous krinei ho Theos.
5 Afilarguros ho tropos arkoumenoi tois parousin; autos gar eireeken, Ou mee se anoo oud’ ou mee se egkatalipoo,
The Greek New Testament, UBS

And, this is a quotation from the Tanakh (the OT):
Deuteronomy 31:1-6
1 And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.
2 And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan.
3 The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said.
4 And the LORD shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed.
5 And the LORD shall give them up before your face, that ye may do unto them according unto all the commandments which I have commanded you.
6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
KJV
So, how do you deduce that “Jesus” (Yeshua`) said this without first assuming that “Jesus" is this “LORD thy God?"
Oh, and I just LOVE how you’ve set yourself up as my “judge, jury, and executioner” with your statements, “It may appear impossible to someone like you, but you don't really know him. // All of His divine attributes are fully functioning right now and if you had the Holy Spirit, you would know that.  Your views are fleshly and based on a lack of any real relationship with God.” Just who do you think YOU are, bubba?!
Romans 14:4
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
KJV
Don’t be so quick to judge, bubba!
Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
KJV
You’ve got a LOT of nerve, bro’, to pass judgment on others without considering yourself first!
You said, “Trinity is demonstrated in function in that we see it working, while it is not present in form in that we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible.” Well, "YOU BELIEVE," you mean, “that Trinity is demonstrated in function [in the Bible] in that we see it working,” but that is your INTERPRETATION of what you read in the Bible! It ought to give you a clue that “we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible”!
And, then you’ve got to go "being all that" again: “The only one being delusional is someone who thinks he is a "Messianic Jew" but who teaches what Messianic Jews and REAL Christ followers reject.” Really, you should consider whether a true follower of the REAL Messiah would talk like that!

Since you bring up Messianic Judaism, as if Messianic Jews do not believe in the Triune nature of God, I will quote the statement of faith of the first and largest Messianic Judaism organization in the U.S., followed by the second largest Messianic Judaism organization in the U.S.

http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=n_about_us_statement_of_faith

Messianic Jewish Alliance of America

We believe that the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4), teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness [Genesis 1:1 (Elohim: God); Genesis 1:26 "Let Us make man in Our image"; Genesis 2:24 Adam & Eve were created to be as one flesh (basar echad)], that He is a personal God who created us (Genesis 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as mentioned in Romans 8:14-17 (Father, Spirit, and Messiah - Son) and Matthew 28:18-20 (immersing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

The Son (HaBen)

God does have a Son who was and is and will return (Psalm 2; Proverbs 30:4-6 (cf. Hebrews 1); Luke 12:35-37; John 1:29-34, 49; 3:14-18). The Son, called Yeshua (Jesus), meaning salvation, came to this world born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14 (cf. Luke 1:30-35)). The Son is God (Deity), and is worshipped as God, having existed eternally (Psalm 110:1 (cf. Hebrews 1:13); Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 28:18-20; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-19; Revelations 3:21 (Hebrews 1 - worshipped by angels); Revelations 4:8, 5:5-14). This One is the promised Mashiach (Messiah) of Israel (Isaiah 9:6-7; 11:1; Daniel 9 (especially verses 20-26); Isaiah 53; John 1:17, 40-41, 45, 49; Mark 8:29). He is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star (Numbers 24:17; Revelations 22:16). He is our Passover, the Lamb of God (I Corinthians 5:7; Revelations. 5; John 1:29).

Next comes the Union of Messianic Judaism Congregations:

http://www.umjc.org/statement-of-faith/

There is one God, who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Every divine action in the world is accomplished by the Father working through the Son and in the power of the Spirit. This God has revealed Himself in creation and in the history of Israel as transmitted in Scripture. (Gen. 1:1; I Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:4-6)

So, a Jewish person who denies the Triunity of God and the Deity of the Son, is not a Messianic Jew. Acceptance of the Deity of Yeshua is a fundamental belief of Messianic Judaism and is a requirement in order to join either of the major Messianic Jewish organizations covering about 85% of all Messianic Jews.

Retrobyter · August 30, 2015

Shalom, shiloh357.

Okay, how much do you study the Word instead of the theology behind what you believe? I’ve gotta tell ya, you’ve forgotten what some Scriptures say and have got some of the Scriptures wrong!
Everyone has theology, including you. Everything you have posted is theology.

Well, that is not exactly what I meant. The word “theology” is the combination of the Greek words “theos” meaning “God” and "logia” meaning “subject” or “study of.” Thus, the word “theology” means “the study of God,” and I DO study about God. However, I am being very careful to form my theology FROM the Scriptures; that’s exegesis. I do not form my understanding of the Scriptures FROM my theology. The converse of that last phrase is to read my theology INTO my understanding of the Scriptures. That’s eisegesis - reading into the Scriptures what you want them to say!

Yeshua` went away! How is that even possible if He was “omnipresent?” He bodily and physically left this earth and went into the sky until a cloud hid Him from their view. When He promised them that He would come to them in John 14:18 above, He was NOT saying that He was returning immediately; He was talking about His FUTURE coming in the clouds! Verses 19 and 20 and 21 are the key: “because I live, ye shall live also,” and “At that day,...” and “I ... will manifest myself to them." He is talking about the day of OUR resurrection!
He didn’t come back “spiritually” in some “invisible” sense! He has YET to return! He sent them the Ruach haQodesh Elohim - the Holy Spirit of God - to be their Comforter until His return! Why would He need to do that IF He was indeed “omnipresent”, “present everywhere?”
You said, “Jesus is able to hear every prayer and intercede for all of us. Jesus can hear, remember and pray for the millions and millions of people who [are] praying all over the world at this very moment.” Book, chapter and verse, please. GOD, who is Yeshua`s Father, is able to do all that, but how do you support that YESHUA` can do all that? See, you’re starting with the ending, like Ezra did. You can’t use your assumption to prove your assumption! That’s called “circular reasoning,”
I didn't say Jesus was omnipresent during His earthly ministry. I said that HE is NOW in the person of the Holy Spirit who has baptized each of us into Christ (Rom. 6:3-4).
According to John 15, Jesus abides in us. Each of us are in Him and He is in each of us. Jesus abides in us in the Person of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit helps us when we pray, and Jesus is our advocate before the Father. He is the advocate of every believer, and He is the High Priest for every believer, and He is making intercession for all of us individually and corporately. That's pretty basic Bible teaching. Any real Christian knows that.

Yeah, and everyone also says, “Jesus lives in my heart,” and we know THAT’S not true! You’re suggesting that the Trinity is a CHRONOLOGICAL trinity? First, the Word, equal with the Father; second, the Son of God, Yeshua` the Messiah - Jesus Christ; and third, the Ruach haQodesh - the Holy Spirit?

The problem is that Yeshua` NEVER GAVE UP HIS BODY! Why not? Because He IS His body! Pay closer attention to John 1:14:

John 1:14

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV

Yochanan (John) said, “the Word was made flesh”; he did NOT say that “the Word took on flesh” or “the Word was dressed in flesh” or any other such nonsense. “He WAS MADE flesh!” He BECAME flesh! The Greek of the phrase is “kai ho logos sarx egeneto.” The word “egeneto” is in the aorist tense, the indicative mood, and the middle voice (third person singular). The middle voice is like the passive in that the subject receives the action of the verb except it has a "vested interest" in the receiving. YES, the Logos was eternal and was God; NO, the flesh person He became is the SON of God, no longer with the attributes of God! He is STILL the highest of God’s Creation and to Him shall be all dominion and power and glory forever!

One must also have a good understanding of the terms “body,” “soul,” and “spirit.” Today, most tend to believe that a person IS a “soul” and HAS a “body” and a “spirit.” People use the phrase, “immortal soul,” as though it were some magical force within a person, and they say, “You have an immortal soul, and it will go to live in either heaven or hell.”

However, when one understands the terms in the original languages, one will understand that a “soul” IS a "breathing body” and the “spirit” is the forceful “breath” of an individual. Thus, a “soul” is a “soul” as long as it has a “spirit.” When it "gives up the spirit” or “expires,” (Latin: ex- “out" + spiro “I-breathe” = “I-breathe-out”), it ceases to be a “soul” and becomes simply a dead “body.” A baby is a living “body" in the womb, but technically it is not a “soul” until he or she has drawn his or her first “spirit” or breath. And, both of these facts are true for animals as much as they are for human beings. Now, if one wants to think of the baby receiving it’s oxygen through the umbilical cord and uterus from the mother’s lungs, the baby could be considered a living “soul” through the mother, in which case the “soul” could be considered to begin at the child’s conception. This is what is meant by “the life of the flesh is in the blood.” However, the baby is not an INDEPENDENT “soul” until he or she is born and breathes air for the first time on his or her own.

Genesis 2:7

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: nefesh).
KJV

Note, too, that in Genesis 2:7, the Scripture does NOT say “the LORD God formed THE BODY OF THE man”; it says “the LORD God formed MAN of the dust of the ground.” After God performed the first “CPR,” so to speak, when the Man began to breathe air on his own, that’s when He became a “living soul” - a “living, air-breathing body."

Now, I said all this to simply bring out the fact that Yeshua` is no longer the Word as He originally existed before the incarnation. He IS His body! And, He has not LOST His body, although it was sacrificed! He was raised from the dead! His body is still physical because He can still be handled and can still eat and drink.

Luke 24:33-53

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
KJV

If anything is true about this new body of His, it’s that He can do extraordinary things as well, like passing through closed doors and rising into the sky, flying off to the New Jerusalem like Superman! Indeed, He is the MODEL for the stories of Superman! He did not, as I’ve read one person to write, “dissipate on the wind!” That’s not what “spiritual” means at all! One merely has to investigate the comparison between the Greek words “pneumatikos” and “psuchikos” in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:35-49

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural (“psuchikos”) body; it is raised a spiritual (“pneumatikos") body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (“psucheen zoosan"); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (“pneuma zoo-opoioun").

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV

and it's a logical fallacy! And, if you’re saying that “Jesus can ... pray for the millions and millions of people,” to whom is Yeshua` praying? Why should He NEED to if He is God on par with His Father, since they are ONE GOD, and both Persons are OMNISCIENT, ALL-KNOWING?
Jesus is praying to the Father. Jesus God the Son and as the Son He prays s to the Father. Jesus is not doing that because the Father needs him to. Jesus is doing that for our benefit. We need Him to be our advocate and High Priest.

But, didn’t He pay for our sins “ONCE FOR ALL?” (Hebrews 9:24-28)

Next, you said, “Jesus also promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us.” Ummm... Sorry, that’s NOT what the Scriptures say!
Jesus is the object through which the Scriptures are interpreted. Jesus is the reflection of the Father's will and His divine nature. What [is] true about the Father in that regard is true about Jesus, too. Jesus also said that he would be with us even to the end of the world (Matt. 28: 20)

In other words, you’re allowing your imagination of who Jesus is be the determining factor in how you interpret Scripture. Backwards.

So, how do you deduce that “Jesus” (Yeshua`) said this without first assuming that “Jesus" is this “LORD thy God?"
The NT is pretty good at establishing Jesus as God in the OT (John 1:1-3, Col 1:15-18, and Heb. 1:1-3, 8). Jesus, according to the NT is the Creator in Genesis. Jesus is God.

We’ve been through this. You’re starting from the end again.

You’ve got a LOT of nerve, bro’, to pass judgment on others without considering yourself first!
There is no heresy or false doctrines in my posts YOU are the one rejecting Jesus, not me.

That would have depended on who won in the second and third centuries A.D! Had the Duality of God persisted, you’d be singing a different tune.

You said, “Trinity is demonstrated in function in that we see it working, while it is not present in form in that we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible.” Well, "YOU BELIEVE," you mean, “that Trinity is demonstrated in function [in the Bible] in that we see it working,” but that is your INTERPRETATION of what you read in the Bible! It ought to give you a clue that “we see nothing doctrinal mentioned about it in the Bible”!
The word "grandfather" isn't in the Bible either, but we can see them in the Bible. The word Trinity is not used because it is based in Latin not in Greek or Hebrew. But Jesus said he was sent by the Father and Jesus said that He would personally send the Holy Spirit. So they are three separate persons all with the same divine attributes.

The word for “three” in Greek is “treis," “trion," or “tria." The word for “third” is “tritos.” You will also not find any of these words in Scripture being applied to the concept of the Trinity except where words were added in 1 John 5:7-8 within the fourth century A.D. because of this very controversy.

And, then you’ve got to go "being all that" again: “The only one being delusional is someone who thinks he is a "Messianic Jew" but who teaches what Messianic Jews and REAL Christ followers reject.” Really, you should consider whether a true follower of the REAL Messiah would talk like that!
So you can accuse ME of being deluded and that's okay. What I said is pretty light compared to what Jesus said to His opponents. I know lots of Messies and they don't agree with you at all.

Being “deluded” just means being “tricked” or “deceived.” That implies that it wasn’t your fault. Being “delusional” is MUCH more connotative:

delusion |diˈlo͞oZHən| noun: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder: the delusion of being watched.• the action of deluding someone or the state of being deluded: what a capacity television has for delusion.

PHRASES delusions of grandeur - a false impression of one's own importance.

DERIVATIVES delusional |-ZHənl| adjective

I don’t expect people to agree with me. I’m going against the grain. I KNOW that! That doesn’t mean I’m not a Messianic believer!

August 31, 2015

Well, that is not exactly what I meant. The word “theology” is the combination of the Greek words “theos” meaning “God” and "logia” meaning “subject” or “study of.” Thus, the word “theology” means “the study of God,” and I DO study about God. However, I am being very careful to form my theology FROM the Scriptures; that’s exegesis. I do not form my understanding of the Scriptures FROM my theology. The converse of that last phrase is to read my theology INTO my understanding of the Scriptures. That’s eisegesis - reading into the Scriptures what you want them to say!

I am not reading theology into the Scriptures. The Bible says that Jesus is God. You reject Jesus and you reject what the Bible says about his deity because your bankrupt, bargain-basement theology claims that Jesus is not God. I can post Scripture that says Jesus is God. All you post is theology in an attempt to refute the pure testimony of Scripture. You are a disgrace and embarrassment to true Messianic Jews. Don't call yourself a Messianic Jew. Messianic Jews have enough problems without some poison pill running around spreading false doctrine and calling it Messianic. Your theology isn't Messianic. It's just messy.

Yeah, and everyone also says, “Jesus lives in my heart,” and we know THAT’S not true!

Actually, it is true. Jesus lives in us in the person of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit who lives in us is called the "Spirit of Christ." (Rom. 8:9) Jesus says that He is in us (John 14:20) Jesus abides in us (John 15:5).

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20)

So, Jesus does indeed live in us.

Yochanan (John) said, “the Word was made flesh”; he did NOT say that “the Word took on flesh” or “the Word was dressed in flesh” or any other such nonsense. “He WAS MADE flesh!” He BECAME flesh! The Greek of the phrase is “kai ho logos sarx egeneto.” The word “egeneto” is in the aorist tense, the indicative mood, and the middle voice (third person singular). The middle voice is like the passive in that the subject receives the action of the verb except it has a "vested interest" in the receiving. YES, the Logos was eternal and was God; NO, the flesh person He became is the SON of God, no longer with the attributes of God! He is STILL the highest of God’s Creation and to Him shall be all dominion and power and glory forever!

That is pure heresy. That Jesus, who pre-existed as The Word became flesh, it doesn't follow that Jesus was only a man and not God. Jesus did not give up any divine attributes. Jesus gave up certain divine prerogatives, but He did not give up anything that made him God. He retained all of his attributes but also temporarily gave up the prerogatives to appropriate them during his earthly ministry. Jesus is not a created being. It appears that you are saying that Jesus is the highest of all created beings and if you are saying that, it is heretical to the core.

But, didn’t He pay for our sins “ONCE FOR ALL?” (Hebrews 9:24-28)

Yes, and that is why he is our advocate and mediator. The Bible would not call him our mediator and advocate if we did not need him for that purpose. He continues to pray for us and continue applying his blood to the heavenly mercy seat for us.

In other words, you’re allowing your imagination of who Jesus is be the determining factor in how you interpret Scripture. Backwards.

No, I am allowing the Bible to tell me who Jesus is and letting the Bible's claims of Jesus deity being the determining factor on how I interpret those Scriptures that reveal his deity. I simply believe what the Bible says about Jesus and that Jesus is the focal point of the entire Bible.

The word for “three” in Greek is “treis," “trion," or “tria." The word for “third” is “tritos.” You will also not find any of these words in Scripture being applied to the concept of the Trinity except where words were added in 1 John 5:7-8 within the fourth century A.D. because of this very controversy.

This has nothing to do with that controversy. The Bible demonstrates the Trinity. It is a mystery about the nature of God and there is nothing in our human experience to compare it to.

I don’t expect people to agree with me. I’m going against the grain. I KNOW that! That doesn’t mean I’m not a Messianic believer!

What you believe is heretical and so opposite what the Bible teaches, it disqualifies you from being any kind of believer, Messianic or otherwise. When you reject Jesus' as God, you reject Jesus period. If you reject His deity, nothing else you believe about him matters because everything about Jesus in the Bible is connected to His deity. HIs Messiahship, Saviorship, all of it is connected to Him being God in the Bible. Rejecting His deity creates a skewed understanding about him in other areas.

Retrobyter · August 31, 2015

...
Since you bring up Messianic Judaism, as if Messianic Jews do not believe in the Triune nature of God, I will quote the statement of faith of the first and largest Messianic Judaism organization in the U.S., followed by the second largest Messianic Judaism organization in the U.S.
http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=n_about_us_statement_of_faith
Messianic Jewish Alliance of America
We believe that the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4), teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness [Genesis 1:1 (Elohim: God); Genesis 1:26 "Let Us make man in Our image"; Genesis 2:24 Adam & Eve were created to be as one flesh (basar echad)], that He is a personal God who created us (Genesis 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as mentioned in Romans 8:14-17 (Father, Spirit, and Messiah - Son) and Matthew 28:18-20 (immersing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
The Son (HaBen)
God does have a Son who was and is and will return (Psalm 2; Proverbs 30:4-6 (cf. Hebrews 1); Luke 12:35-37; John 1:29-34, 49; 3:14-18). The Son, called Yeshua (Jesus), meaning salvation, came to this world born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14 (cf. Luke 1:30-35)). The Son is God (Deity), and is worshipped as God, having existed eternally (Psalm 110:1 (cf. Hebrews 1:13); Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 28:18-20; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-19; Revelations 3:21 (Hebrews 1 - worshipped by angels); Revelations 4:8, 5:5-14). This One is the promised Mashiach (Messiah) of Israel (Isaiah 9:6-7; 11:1; Daniel 9 (especially verses 20-26); Isaiah 53; John 1:17, 40-41, 45, 49; Mark 8:29). He is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star (Numbers 24:17; Revelations 22:16). He is our Passover, the Lamb of God (I Corinthians 5:7; Revelations. 5; John 1:29).
Next comes the Union of Messianic Judaism Congregations:
http://www.umjc.org/statement-of-faith/
There is one God, who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Every divine action in the world is accomplished by the Father working through the Son and in the power of the Spirit. This God has revealed Himself in creation and in the history of Israel as transmitted in Scripture. (Gen. 1:1; I Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:4-6)
So, a Jewish person who denies the Triunity of God and the Deity of the Son, is not a Messianic Jew. Acceptance of the Deity of Yeshua is a fundamental belief of Messianic Judaism and is a requirement in order to join either of the major Messianic Jewish organizations covering about 85% of all Messianic Jews.

I know fully well what Messianic believers believe, being a member of a Messianic synagogue under the MJAA banner. However, I am also a truth-seeker, and I’m not afraid of stepping on a few people’s toes to find that truth. If I’ve touched your “sacred cow,” too bad! I believe it’s better in the long run to do so. The problem is running into people who think, “It’s this way, and it can’t be any other way. (I’m not going to change my mind, and I dare you to try to change my opinion!)"

Look, if you don’t value my beliefs, that’s your choice. I think you’re making a big mistake not to consider them, but whatever. I will just chalk this up to “casting my pearls before the swine.” And, that’s NOT a slur against any of you. The “swine” in Yeshua`s statement (Matthew 7:6) were simply people who could not value what you were trying to toss to them. Instead, they thought you were trying to THROW something AT them; they’ll stomp what you threw into the ground, and then they will turn upon you to tear you up!

That’s what’s happening here. You can’t see the value in what I’m trying to convey to you all, so you begin to attack the messenger instead of the message, especially of late, Mr. “shiloh357.” He’s even stooped to calling me an “unbeliever!” Amazing! I’m trying to convey additional truth instead of the tired, worn-out, nonsensical “trinity” viewpoint. I do NOT deny that Yeshua` was the Word incarnate, or that the Word was with God and was God. HOWEVER, I deny, therefore, that He can have His “cake” and eat it, too! He can’t be made "flesh" - His “body,” that is, even now resurrected immortal, incorruptible, and superhuman - AND be omnipresent, too! Thus, there is real MEANING to the term “Son of God.” It does NOT mean that He is “God.” It means, like it says, that He is "the SON of God!” Furthermore, this is in fulfillment of OT prophecy, particularly those of 2 Samuel 7:1-17; 1 Chronicles 17:1-15; and 22:9-10, a promise to David fulfilled in Matthew 3:16-17; Mark 1:9-11; and Luke 3:21-22 and in Matthew 16:28-17:9; Mark 9:1-10; and Luke 9:27-36!

Qnts2 · August 31, 2015

...
Since you bring up Messianic Judaism, as if Messianic Jews do not believe in the Triune nature of God, I will quote the statement of faith of the first and largest Messianic Judaism organization in the U.S., followed by the second largest Messianic Judaism organization in the U.S.
http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=n_about_us_statement_of_faith
Messianic Jewish Alliance of America
We believe that the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4), teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness [Genesis 1:1 (Elohim: God); Genesis 1:26 "Let Us make man in Our image"; Genesis 2:24 Adam & Eve were created to be as one flesh (basar echad)], that He is a personal God who created us (Genesis 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as mentioned in Romans 8:14-17 (Father, Spirit, and Messiah - Son) and Matthew 28:18-20 (immersing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
The Son (HaBen)
God does have a Son who was and is and will return (Psalm 2; Proverbs 30:4-6 (cf. Hebrews 1); Luke 12:35-37; John 1:29-34, 49; 3:14-18). The Son, called Yeshua (Jesus), meaning salvation, came to this world born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14 (cf. Luke 1:30-35)). The Son is God (Deity), and is worshipped as God, having existed eternally (Psalm 110:1 (cf. Hebrews 1:13); Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 28:18-20; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-19; Revelations 3:21 (Hebrews 1 - worshipped by angels); Revelations 4:8, 5:5-14). This One is the promised Mashiach (Messiah) of Israel (Isaiah 9:6-7; 11:1; Daniel 9 (especially verses 20-26); Isaiah 53; John 1:17, 40-41, 45, 49; Mark 8:29). He is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star (Numbers 24:17; Revelations 22:16). He is our Passover, the Lamb of God (I Corinthians 5:7; Revelations. 5; John 1:29).
Next comes the Union of Messianic Judaism Congregations:
http://www.umjc.org/statement-of-faith/
There is one God, who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Every divine action in the world is accomplished by the Father working through the Son and in the power of the Spirit. This God has revealed Himself in creation and in the history of Israel as transmitted in Scripture. (Gen. 1:1; I Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:4-6)
So, a Jewish person who denies the Triunity of God and the Deity of the Son, is not a Messianic Jew. Acceptance of the Deity of Yeshua is a fundamental belief of Messianic Judaism and is a requirement in order to join either of the major Messianic Jewish organizations covering about 85% of all Messianic Jews.
I know fully well what Messianic believers believe, being a member of a Messianic synagogue under the MJAA banner. However, I am also a truth-seeker, and I’m not afraid of stepping on a few people’s toes to find that truth. If I’ve touched your “sacred cow,” too bad! I believe it’s better in the long run to do so. The problem is running into people who think, “It’s this way, and it can’t be any other way. (I’m not going to change my mind, and I dare you to try to change my opinion!)"
Look, if you don’t value my beliefs, that’s your choice. I think you’re making a big mistake not to consider them, but whatever. I will just chalk this up to “casting my pearls before the swine.” And, that’s NOT a slur against any of you. The “swine” in Yeshua`s statement (Matthew 7:6) were simply people who could not value what you were trying to toss to them. Instead, they thought you were trying to THROW something AT them; they’ll stomp what you threw into the ground, and then they will turn upon you to tear you up!
That’s what’s happening here. You can’t see the value in what I’m trying to convey to you all, so you begin to attack the messenger instead of the message, especially of late, Mr. “shiloh357.” He’s even stooped to calling me an “unbeliever!” Amazing! I’m trying to convey additional truth instead of the tired, worn-out, nonsensical “trinity” viewpoint. I do NOT deny that Yeshua` was the Word incarnate, or that the Word was with God and was God. HOWEVER, I deny, therefore, that He can have His “cake” and eat it, too! He can’t be made "flesh" - His “body,” that is, even now resurrected immortal, incorruptible, and superhuman - AND be omnipresent, too! Thus, there is real MEANING to the term “Son of God.” It does NOT mean that He is “God.” It means, like it says, that He is "the SON of God!” Furthermore, this is in fulfillment of OT prophecy, particularly those of 2 Samuel 7:1-17; 1 Chronicles 17:1-15; and 22:9-10, a promise to David fulfilled in Matthew 3:16-17; Mark 1:9-11; and Luke 3:21-22 and in Matthew 16:28-17:9; Mark 9:1-10; and Luke 9:27-36!

I know that Jesus is God. The terminology (Memra), the Word, in Judaism meant a manifestation of God on the earth. I knew that Jesus is God when I got saved. It was a part of the revelation I received.

Son of God does mean that Jesus is God. Son of God describes not just a relationship, but the essence, and the authority. I would think that it is unnecessary to say the I share the DNA contributed to me from my father. We are of the same essence.

I have met many very young believers who were not yet sure whether Jesus is God. I show them a few scriptures and it is settled that Jesus is God. The difference between these babies in Messiah and you, as well as some others, is that you are teaching that Jesus is not God. Jesus being God is a very fundamental and essential belief. If Jesus was not God, Jesus is not qualified to be the prophesied Messiah. Since you are teaching against a fundamental scriptural truth, that makes you a false teacher.

Since you are teaching contrary to the statement of faith of the MJAA, you actually can not be a member of the MJAA.

August 31, 2015

I know fully well what Messianic believers believe, being a member of a Messianic synagogue under the MJAA banner.

I have several MJAA friends who are dedicated Messianic Jews and they wholeheartedly reject any teaching that denies the deity of Jesus. There might a few heretics who share your views, but most do not. Your views fly in the face of the MJAA statement of faith. Here is what they believe:

"God does have a Son who was and is and will return (Psalm 2; Proverbs 30:4-6 (cf. Hebrews 1); Luke 12:35-37; John 1:29-34, 49; 3:14-18). The Son, called Yeshua (Jesus), meaning salvation, came to this world born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14 (cf. Luke 1:30-35)). The Son is God (Deity), and is worshiped as God, having existed eternally (Psalm 110:1 (cf. Hebrews 1:13); Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 28:18-20; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-19; Revelation 3:21 (Hebrews 1 - worshiped by angels); Revelations 4:8, 5:5-14). This One is the promised Mashiach (Messiah) of Israel (Isaiah 9:6-7; 11:1; Daniel 9 (especially verses 20-26); Isaiah 53; John 1:17, 40-41, 45, 49; Mark 8:29). He is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star (Numbers 24:17; Revelation 22:16). He is our Passover, the Lamb of God (I Corinthians 5:7; Revelation 5; John 1:29)." http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=rd_aboutus_statement_of_faith

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