The Lord Jesus Christ

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, shiloh357. 

Well, that is not exactly what I meant. The word “theology” is the combination of the Greek words “theos” meaning “God” and "logia” meaning “subject” or “study of.” Thus, the word “theology” means “the study of God,” and I DO study about God. However, I am being very careful to form my theology FROM the Scriptures; that’s exegesis. I do not form my understanding of the Scriptures FROM my theology. The converse of that last phrase is to read my theology INTO my understanding of the Scriptures. That’s eisegesis - reading into the Scriptures what you want them to say!

I am not reading theology into the Scriptures.   The Bible says that Jesus is God.   You reject Jesus and you reject what the Bible says about his deity because your  bankrupt, bargain-basement theology claims that Jesus is not God.  I can post Scripture that says Jesus is God.  All you post is theology in an attempt to refute the pure testimony of Scripture.  You are a disgrace and embarrassment to true Messianic Jews.  Don't call yourself a Messianic Jew.   Messianic Jews have enough problems without some poison pill  running around spreading false doctrine and calling it Messianic.   Your theology isn't Messianic.  It's just messy.

Yes, you ARE reading your theology into the Scriptures. It flavors all you read and narrows the scope of how you interpret what you read. You simply CAN’T look at the Scriptures any other way! You are closed minded and not open to anything outside your own little world of what you believe. Without being able even to entertain the possibility that what I’ve been telling you has merit, you’ve charged forward on your rampage to vilify me! You’re like a rabid animal! You really ARE that “swine" before which I have thrown my “pearls!” 

Hmmm... Such words of “love and grace.” You should feel so proud of yourself. How’s about I call myself a “Messianic Baptist,” instead? I’d even be willing to call myself an “Independent Messianic Anabaptist!” (Maybe not.)

Yeah, and everyone also says, “Jesus lives in my heart,” and we know THAT’S not true!

Actually, it is true.   Jesus lives in us in the person of the Holy Spirit.   The Holy Spirit who lives in us is called the "Spirit of Christ." (Rom. 8:9)  Jesus says that He is in us (John 14:20)   Jesus abides in us (John 15:5).

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20)

So, Jesus does indeed live in us. 

Now, I’m convinced that you’re just a nay-sayer, always looking for a way to be contrary ... and CANTANKEROUS! Haven’t you ever listened to little kids asking how Jesus would fit in their hearts? They may be little literalists, but they are SO RIGHT! I never said that the Holy Spirit doesn’t live within God’s children; I said that it’s not true that "JESUS lives in my heart!” YOU’RE NOT LISTENING (or READING)! People get that from how Revelation 3:20 has always been misinterpreted for the invitation or the “altar call":

Revelation 3:20

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
KJV

And, often one would hear with this verse the statement, “Jesus stands at your heart’s door and knocks. Won’t you let Him come in?” There’s even a song with the words, “Jesus is waiting to enter your heart. Why won’t you let Him come in?"

In John 14:20, the word “IS” is not there. And, John 15:5? Really? A parable? The Greek words translated “He that abideth” is “Ho menoon,” stemming from this word:

NT:3306 menoo (men'-o); a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):

KJV - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for),  thine own.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, there’s nothing there that demands that Yeshua` is “within one’s heart,” either. The words could be “He that stays in the same expectancy” or “He that stays in the same relation” or “He that stays in the same state."

As far as Galatians 2:20 is concerned, “the Messiah lives in me” in the same way that “I have been crucified with the Messiah.” Unless you’re literally hanging on a cross, it’s a FIGURATIVE crucifixion. Thus, "the Messiah lives in me” in a FIGURATIVE fashion. What Paul was saying was that He was DEVOTED to living for the Messiah and “dying” to himself. Pay attention to the second half of the verse:

Galatians 2:20

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
KJV

Yochanan (John) said, “the Word was made flesh”; he did NOT say that “the Word took on flesh” or “the Word was dressed in flesh” or any other such nonsense. “He WAS MADE flesh!” He BECAME flesh! The Greek of the phrase is “kai ho logos sarx egeneto.” The word “egeneto” is in the aorist tense, the indicative mood, and the middle voice (third person singular). The middle voice is like the passive in that the subject receives the action of the verb except it has a "vested interest" in the receiving. YES, the Logos was eternal and was God; NO, the flesh person He became is the SON of God, no longer with the attributes of God! He is STILL the highest of God’s Creation and to Him shall be all dominion and power and glory forever!

That is pure heresy.  That Jesus, who pre-existed as The Word became flesh, it doesn't follow that Jesus was only a man and not God.   Jesus did not give up any divine attributes.  Jesus gave up certain divine prerogatives, but He did not give up anything that made him God.  He retained all of his attributes but also temporarily gave up the prerogatives to appropriate them during his earthly ministry.   Jesus is not a created being.  It appears that you are saying that Jesus is the highest of all created beings and if you are saying that, it is heretical to the core.  

If you say so. Actually, I think it’s pure truth. Yeshua` WAS the Word, “WAS” being the operative word, but the Word BECAME flesh, BECAME Yeshua` the Messiah. Chronology is a factor! And, .... THINK ABOUT IT: How is it possible for a human being to display the attributes of GOD?! Don’t answer; just THINK about it! You’re partly right, Yeshua` is NOT a "created being”; He is an “INCARNATED Being!” There’s never been anyone like Yeshua` nor will there be anyone like Him, EVER! I’m not saying that His origin is not God; I’m saying that Yeshua` is UNIQUELY the SON OF GOD! He was made a little lower than the aggeloi - the messengers of God (Heb. 2:7-9)

Hebrews 2:7-9

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
KJV

So, you don’t quite have me rightly “pigeon-holed,” yet. Relax, bro’! You MIGHT just figure me out sooner or later.

But, didn’t He pay for our sins “ONCE FOR ALL?” (Hebrews 9:24-28)

Yes, and that is why he is our advocate  and mediator.   The Bible would not call him our mediator and advocate if we did not need him for that purpose.   He continues to pray for us and continue applying his blood to the heavenly mercy seat for us. 

THAT is nonsense and heretical! “Continually applying His blood to the heavenly mercy seat?”! WOW! And, you thought I was bad!

Hebrew 10:1-22

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV

It’s wrong to think that His mediation is an on-going thing. It’s a “once-for-all” thing! It’s a DONE DEAL! And, as such, we have confidence to approach God in “full assurance of faith."

In other words, you’re allowing your imagination of who Jesus is be the determining factor in how you interpret Scripture. Backwards.

No, I am allowing the Bible to tell me who Jesus is and letting the Bible's claims of Jesus deity being the determining factor on how I interpret those Scriptures that reveal his deity.   I simply believe what the Bible says about Jesus and that Jesus is the focal point of the entire Bible.

The Bible’s “claims of Jesus’ deity” are nothing of the sort. These “claims” are greatly exaggerated and distorted by a twisting of words (without anyone actually checking out the origins of these “claims”) and the constant teaching that these are legitimate “claims!” You have simply believed what others have TOLD YOU the Bible says about Yeshua`. Yeshua` IS the central focus of the entire Bible, but you are over-stating His role! 

The word for “three” in Greek is “treis," “trion," or “tria." The word for “third” is “tritos.” You will also not find any of these words in Scripture being applied to the concept of the Trinity except where words were added in 1 John 5:7-8 within the fourth century A.D. because of this very controversy.

This has nothing to do with that controversy.   The  Bible demonstrates the Trinity.  It is a mystery about the nature of God and there is nothing in our human experience to compare it to.

Rubbish. Why even demonstrate the “Trinity” if we have nothing in our human experience to compare to it? It’s just a way to confound people and muddy the waters to keep the laity under the control of the clergy.

I don’t expect people to agree with me. I’m going against the grain. I KNOW that! That doesn’t mean I’m not a Messianic believer!

What you believe is heretical and so opposite what the Bible teaches, it disqualifies you from  being any kind of believer, Messianic or otherwise. When you reject Jesus' as God, you reject Jesus period.  If you reject His deity, nothing else you believe about him matters because everything about Jesus in the Bible is connected to His deity.  HIs Messiahship, Saviorship, all of it is connected to Him being God in the Bible.   Rejecting His deity creates a skewed understanding about him in other areas.

Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and you don’t know me. Quit trying to pigeon-hole me! It’s rude, and it’s insensitive, and it’s WRONG!

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes, you ARE reading your theology into the Scriptures. It flavors all you read and narrows the scope of how you interpret what you read. You simply CAN’T look at the Scriptures any other way! You are closed minded and not open to anything outside your own little world of what you believe.

I don't need to look at the Bible any other way, because I am right and you are wrong.   I can afford to be close-minded when I am right.   

  I said that it’s not true that "JESUS lives in my heart!”

Yes, you did.  And you're wrong.   He does, in the Person of the Holy Spirit.   Jesus can do that because he is God.  

YOU’RE NOT LISTENING (or READING)!

I am both listening and reading. And I am rejecting what you teach because you don't believe the Bible and are spreading heresy.  True followers of Jesus do not believe as you believe.

It’s wrong to think that His mediation is an on-going thing. It’s a “once-for-all” thing! It’s a DONE DEAL! And, as such, we have confidence to approach God in “full assurance of faith."

 No, that passage in Romans 10 says Jesus sacrifice for sin is once for all.  His mediation as High Priest is a different issue. 

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.  (Heb 7:24-25)

Jesus lives forever and  He "ever lives"  (present tense) to make intercession for us as our High Priest.  It is a continuous ongoing priesthood.

The Bible’s “claims of Jesus’ deity” are nothing of the sort. These “claims” are greatly exaggerated and distorted by a twisting of words (without anyone actually checking out the origins of these “claims”) and the constant teaching that these are legitimate “claims!”

That's your theology.  Prove it.

 Rubbish. Why even demonstrate the “Trinity” if we have nothing in our human experience to compare to it? It’s just a way to confound people and muddy the waters to keep the laity under the control of the clergy.

It doesn't confound anyone.   There are lots of things about God that we are incapable of figuring out but we can still trust the Bible even if don't understanding the nuts and bolts.   But the Bible does demonstrate the Trinity even though it doesn't explain it.    I guess some people have the faith to believe the Bible and others don't.

Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and you don’t know me. Quit trying to pigeon-hole me! It’s rude, and it’s insensitive, and it’s WRONG!

I am not pigeon holing you at all. l am simply working from your rejection of Jesus as God.   Your views are heretical and are not Messianic. 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, shiloh357. 

Yes, you ARE reading your theology into the Scriptures. It flavors all you read and narrows the scope of how you interpret what you read. You simply CAN’T look at the Scriptures any other way! You are closed minded and not open to anything outside your own little world of what you believe.

I don't need to look at the Bible any other way, because I am right and you are wrong.   I can afford to be close-minded when I am right.   

No, I’m right and YOU are wrong. You DO need to look at the Bible in a new light because you’ve been closed to the truth that the Bible is trying to convey to you! Let me ask you a simple (yet elusive) question: WHEN the Messiah returns, what will His reign look like? (I say, “WHEN,” because I’m sure you believe that He will to begin His reign in what is commonly called "the Millennium.")

  I said that it’s not true that "JESUS lives in my heart!”

Yes, you did.  And you're wrong.   He does, in the Person of the Holy Spirit.   Jesus can do that because he is God.  

Who, according to YOU (and others like you), is a THIRD Person of the Trinity! Is Yeshua` (Jesus), as the SECOND Person of the Trinity, the same Person? If not, then how is He the One who “lives in my heart?” See, the problem with this concept of the Trinity is that ANYTHING you want to make up about it goes! You can say what you want to say, and it’s all good because either “they AREN’T the same Person" or "they ARE the same God!"

YOU’RE NOT LISTENING (or READING)!

I am both listening and reading. And I am rejecting what you teach because you don't believe the Bible and are spreading heresy.  True followers of Jesus do not believe as you believe.

You’re out of your mind to say I don’t believe the Bible! As far as “spreading heresy” goes, just who do you think you are? The Pope?! WHO CARES if I go against “orthodox religious doctrine?” I’ve NEVER been “orthodox,” and I’m PROUD of it! To be “orthodox” in one’s teachings is to be mediocre and shallow! I won’t just parrot someone else’s “doctrines” just to FIT IN! I want the teachings I find from the Scriptures to be MEANINGFUL and IMPACTFUL!

It’s wrong to think that His mediation is an on-going thing. It’s a “once-for-all” thing! It’s a DONE DEAL! And, as such, we have confidence to approach God in “full assurance of faith."

 No, that passage in Romans 10 says Jesus sacrifice for sin is once for all.  His mediation as High Priest is a different issue. 

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.  (Heb 7:24-25)

Jesus lives forever and  He "ever lives"  (present tense) to make intercession for us as our High Priest.  It is a continuous ongoing priesthood.

No, it is from HEBREWS 10, and Yeshua`s sacrifice for sin IS once for all. “Mediation,” (Greek: mesitees = “mediator") which is focused on GOD’S PERSPECTIVE, who is ABSOLUTE, is a "ONCE for EVER” SATISFACTION! “Intercession,” (Greek: parakleetos = “intercessor; advocate; comforter") as you’ve quoted and rightly stated, is an on-going priesthood. I won’t deny that. The difference, then, is moot; it’s simply a matter of using the “wrong word.” Let’s agree to move on....

The Bible’s “claims of Jesus’ deity” are nothing of the sort. These “claims” are greatly exaggerated and distorted by a twisting of words (without anyone actually checking out the origins of these “claims”) and the constant teaching that these are legitimate “claims!”

That's your theology.  Prove it.

Easy enough. I’ve BEEN doing it, IF you’ve been paying attention. For instance, Yeshua` is NOT the recipient of the words “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever,” despite how the English of Hebrews 1:8-9 looks. The quotation from Psalm 45:7-8, when one checks out the Hebrew, is talking to God the Father (YHWH) FIRST and it is the SECOND part (verse 9 in Hebrews 1 and verse 8 in Psalm 45) that is addressed to the King, who is Messiah Yeshua`. It’s really that simple. BUT, one must be open enough even to consider the possibility that one COULD be wrong and that I’m telling you the truth. To be close-minded is to miss the rationale completely, to miss the truth, and to remain confined in the wrong-thinking of the multiple centuries since Yeshua` died and was raised to life.

 Rubbish. Why even demonstrate the “Trinity” if we have nothing in our human experience to compare to it? It’s just a way to confound people and muddy the waters to keep the laity under the control of the clergy.

It doesn't confound anyone.   There are lots of things about God that we are incapable of figuring out but we can still trust the Bible even if don't understanding the nuts and bolts.   But the Bible does demonstrate the Trinity even though it doesn't explain it.    I guess some people have the faith to believe the Bible and others don't.

OR, some people only have the “faith" to believe what they’ve been TOLD to believe about the Bible, and they are INDEED confounded by the fictional “nuts and bolts” ... and with good reason!

Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and you don’t know me. Quit trying to pigeon-hole me! It’s rude, and it’s insensitive, and it’s WRONG!

I am not pigeon holing you at all. l am simply working from your rejection of Jesus as God.   Your views are heretical and are not Messianic. 

Aw, sure you are. You just don’t know how to handle what I believe about Yeshua`, and you just can’t accept anything that you can’t understand; so, you plug me into your one-size-fits-all mold and declare me to be what I am not. If it doesn’t fit into your little box of what you believe, it’s “heretical,” and the person who believes it “can’t possibly be a real believer!” You’re just a closed-minded person with no imagination and no toleration ... AND no room for personal growth. It’s time to wake up. The Messiah is coming and you’re not ready, yet!

[Guest shiloh357]

No, I’m right and YOU are wrong. You DO need to look at the Bible in a new light because you’ve been closed to the truth that the Bible is trying to convey to you! Let me ask you a simple (yet elusive) question: WHEN the Messiah returns, what will His reign look like? (I say, “WHEN,” because I’m sure you believe that He will to begin His reign in what is commonly called "the Millennium.")

A good idea of what the millennium will look like will be seen in Ezek. 40-48.    I fail to see what that has to do with Jesus' deity.  Jesus was and is God.   That's what true followers of Jesus believe.   Again, I am very close-minded about this because the Bible says that Jesus is God.  You dont' have the Holy Spirit and so the things of God are foolishness to you.  You will have all eternity in hell to remember how you rejected the truth.

Who, according to YOU (and others like you), is a THIRD Person of the Trinity! Is Yeshua` (Jesus), as the SECOND Person of the Trinity, the same Person? If not, then how is He the One who “lives in my heart?” See, the problem with this concept of the Trinity is that ANYTHING you want to make up about it goes! You can say what you want to say, and it’s all good because either “they AREN’T the same Person" or "they ARE the same God!"

The Holy Spirit is called "The Spirit of Christ"  in the Scriptures.  Jesus said in John 15 that He would abide in us and we abide in Him.   How can Jesus live in us in the person of the Holy Spirit if they are two separate persons??   How is that possible?  I don't know.  It doesn't make sense with respect  to our limited perspective of reality in the world we live in.   But then it wasn't intended to make sense to us.  God lives on plain of reality that we don't live on and things are possible for Him that we have no point of reference for within the scope of our human experience.  I am not making up arbitrary things.  I am simply reflecting what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit and our relationship to the Godhead. 

I can believe what's in the Bible without having to have the nuts and bolts figured out.  I don't have to understand the Trinity completely in order to believe and trust God and His word.   You don't have the Holy Spirit so that is not possible for you. 

You’re out of your mind to say I don’t believe the Bible

You're out of your mind for not believing the Bible.

As far as “spreading heresy” goes, just who do you think you are? The Pope?! WHO CARES if I go against “orthodox religious doctrine?”

 The Bible say that Jesus is God.  That's not merely orthodox doctrine.  That's Bible.  You reject the  Bible, not merely orthodox doctrine.

“Mediation,” (Greek: mesitees = “mediator") which is focused on GOD’S PERSPECTIVE, who is ABSOLUTE, is a "ONCE for EVER” SATISFACTION! “Intercession,” (Greek: parakleetos = “intercessor; advocate; comforter") as you’ve quoted and rightly stated, is an on-going priesthood. I won’t deny that. The difference, then, is moot; it’s simply a matter of using the “wrong word.” Let’s agree to move on....

Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant.   He is also our intercessor.   Both of those roles are ongoing.  Jesus work on the cross as our sacrifice was once-for-all.  The reference to Jesus as the mediator are in the present tense,  not past tense.  It was not a one-time thing.  The New Covenant is completely fulfilled and until it is, Jesus will continue to mediate it.

Easy enough. I’ve BEEN doing it, IF you’ve been paying attention. For instance, Yeshua` is NOT the recipient of the words “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever,” despite how the English of Hebrews 1:8-9 looks.

The Greek of Heb. 1:8 supports the English rendering.   The writer of Hebrews applies that verse from Psalms to Jesus and the context of the chapter makes that clear as well.   Jesus is the subject of Heb. 1:8.   So Jesus is being called God in Heb. 1:8.  "And unto the Son He says, thy throne O God..."   So I will close my mind to your false teaching and incompetent exegesis and believe what the Bible says.   Jesus is God.

OR, some people only have the “faith" to believe what they’ve been TOLD to believe about the Bible, and they are INDEED confounded by the fictional “nuts and bolts” ... and with good reason!

I guess you will have to wallow I your unbelief.  You will have all eternity to mull over your rejection of Jesus 

Aw, sure you are. You just don’t know how to handle what I believe about Yeshua`, and you just can’t accept anything that you can’t understand;

I know exactly how to handle what you believe about Jesus.   I reject it.   I understand your position.  You haven't told me anything I didn't already know.   I reject it because it's wrong and because it comes from Satan.

so, you plug me into your one-size-fits-all mold and declare me to be what I am not. If it doesn’t fit into your little box of what you believe, it’s “heretical,” and the person who believes it “can’t possibly be a real believer!” You’re just a closed-minded person with no imagination and no toleration ... AND no room for personal growth. It’s time to wake up. The Messiah is coming and you’re not ready, yet!

What you believe is heretical because it does violence to the true nature of Christ.  And if you reject the deity of Jesus you cannot be a Christian because a mere man could not have died for our sins. could pay for our sins, God could have used Moses  or Abraham.  God was on the cross paying for our sins on our behalf.

So I am closed-minded to any other view because I believe the Bible and what it says.  You don't.  You are spreading heresy and I am closed-minded to your Satan-inspired, heretical views. 

[enoob57]

 

they are INDEED confounded by the fictional “nuts and bolts” ... and with good reason!

I guess you will have to wallow I your unbelief.  You will have all eternity to mull over your rejection of Jesus 

Do you really think that in a place where all the needs God has made us to need, yet removes all supply to the individual need: hunger-food, thirst-water; exhaustion-rest;
companionship-others; value-duties; love-Jesus; etc. etc. so that  the increase with time so also the need... then taking all this and being within a flame of fire with no
escape? I see only a desperation of seeking end to that which torments and that would be only one more need never to be fulfilled!  Love, Steven

[firestormx]

Retrobyter ,

Isaiah 9:6 

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

I've been following this thread for a while and was curious if you would answer a question for me. If Jesus is not God then how do you explain the verse above? Thank you

Firestormx

[Guest shiloh357]

 

they are INDEED confounded by the fictional “nuts and bolts” ... and with good reason!

I guess you will have to wallow I your unbelief.  You will have all eternity to mull over your rejection of Jesus 

Do you really think that in a place where all the needs God has made us to need, yet removes all supply to the individual need: hunger-food, thirst-water; exhaustion-rest;
companionship-others; value-duties; love-Jesus; etc. etc. so that  the increase with time so also the need... then taking all this and being within a flame of fire with no
escape? I see only a desperation of seeking end to that which torments and that would be only one more need never to be fulfilled!  Love, Steven

Maybe is the grammatical train wreck present in that post or something else, but I have NO idea what you are saying to me.

[Retrobyter]

Retrobyter ,

Isaiah 9:6 

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

I've been following this thread for a while and was curious if you would answer a question for me. If Jesus is not God then how do you explain the verse above? Thank you

Firestormx

And, thank you, Firestormx, for the question. Ignore everything that we’ve discussed so far (especailly the rabid ranting of shiloh357).

Here’s the gist of what I’ve been saying and what I believe in a picture of the hierarchy:

God (the Father), who is Spirit, who is Holy, and therefore is "the Holy Spirit,” eternal and infinite in all positive respects

|

Yeshua`, the Messiah of God and His King-Apparent, once the Word, now the Son of God, eternal but not quite infinite in all respects by virtue of His body

|

| (HUGE GAP HERE!!!)

|

Messengers (the supernatural messengers of God, also transliterated from the Greek as “angels”)

|

Human leaders and governments

|

Commoners (other men with little or no authority over other men)

====

Yesha`yahu 9:6 is the following transliterated from the Hebrew:

5(6) kiy yeled yulad laanuw been nitan laanuw vat-hiy hamisraah `al shikmow vayiqraa’ shmow pele’ yow`eets eel gibowr aViy `ad sar shaalowm:

JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH (without capital letters since there is no such thing in Hebrew)

5(6) kiy = 5(6) for

yeled = a-male-child

yulad = is-born

laanuw = to-us

been = a-son

nitan = is-given

laanuw = to-us

vat-hiy = and-shall-be

hamisraah = the-control/government/empire

`al = upon

shikmow = his-shoulders

vayiqraa’ = and-shall-be-called

shmow = his-name

pele’ = a-wonder/miracle

yow`eets = counselor/to-devise/deliberate/resolve

eel = God

gibowr = mighty/strong/powerful

aViy = my-father

`ad = vanishing-point/eternal

sar = a-prince/winner

shaalowm: = peace:

Taking it with a grain of salt because it is, after all, a Jewish publication and is therefore an anti-Yeshua` document, the JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH words it like this: “The mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler,” and points to 25:1 as proof to the interpretation of the “is planning” part. Jewish eschatology DOES acknowledge the coming Messiah of God; they just won’t recognize Yeshua` being that Messiah. However, they DO know the correct Hebrew grammar behind the phrase. 

Also, any time that two (or more) nouns are placed back to back in Hebrew, they are in the construct state and the word “of” can be inserted between them when translated into English. For instance, “sar shalom,” is translated as “prince of peace,” showing either ownership or relationship.

I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace."

Remember: ALL Hebrew names mean something. Sometimes, the names and their translations are short and sweet, like “Sarah,” being the feminine form of “Sar,” means “Princess” (or a female “Winner”). Sometimes, the names are whole phrases: Iy-kaaVowd (Ichabod) = “(there is) no glory,” when the “glory” - the Ark of the Covenant - was taken by the P’lishtiym (the Philistines).  Sometimes, the name, like Maheer-Shaalaal-Chaash-Baz, can be quite lengthy. The name means “hurrying to the booty, eagerly hurrying to the plunder.” This is ONE such name consisting of six parts, not multiple names.

 

 

 

[firestormx]

Retrobyter ,

Isaiah 9:6 

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

I've been following this thread for a while and was curious if you would answer a question for me. If Jesus is not God then how do you explain the verse above? Thank you

Firestormx

And, thank you, Firestormx, for the question. Ignore everything that we’ve discussed so far (especailly the rabid ranting of shiloh357).

Here’s the gist of what I’ve been saying and what I believe in a picture of the hierarchy:

God (the Father), who is Spirit, who is Holy, and therefore is "the Holy Spirit,” eternal and infinite in all positive respects

|

Yeshua`, the Messiah of God and His King-Apparent, once the Word, now the Son of God, eternal but not quite infinite in all respects by virtue of His body

|

| (HUGE GAP HERE!!!)

|

Messengers (the supernatural messengers of God, also transliterated from the Greek as “angels”)

|

Human leaders and governments

|

Commoners (other men with little or no authority over other men)

====

Yesha`yahu 9:6 is the following transliterated from the Hebrew:

5(6) kiy yeled yulad laanuw been nitan laanuw vat-hiy hamisraah `al shikmow vayiqraa’ shmow pele’ yow`eets eel gibowr aViy `ad sar shaalowm:

JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH (without capital letters since there is no such thing in Hebrew)

5(6) kiy = 5(6) for

yeled = a-male-child

yulad = is-born

laanuw = to-us

been = a-son

nitan = is-given

laanuw = to-us

vat-hiy = and-shall-be

hamisraah = the-control/government/empire

`al = upon

shikmow = his-shoulders

vayiqraa’ = and-shall-be-called

shmow = his-name

pele’ = a-wonder/miracle

yow`eets = counselor/to-devise/deliberate/resolve

eel = God

gibowr = mighty/strong/powerful

aViy = my-father

`ad = vanishing-point/eternal

sar = a-prince/winner

shaalowm: = peace:

Taking it with a grain of salt because it is, after all, a Jewish publication and is therefore an anti-Yeshua` document, the JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH words it like this: “The mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler,” and points to 25:1 as proof to the interpretation of the “is planning” part. Jewish eschatology DOES acknowledge the coming Messiah of God; they just won’t recognize Yeshua` being that Messiah. However, they DO know the correct Hebrew grammar behind the phrase. 

Also, any time that two (or more) nouns are placed back to back in Hebrew, they are in the construct state and the word “of” can be inserted between them when translated into English. For instance, “sar shalom,” is translated as “prince of peace,” showing either ownership or relationship.

I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace."

Remember: ALL Hebrew names mean something. Sometimes, the names and their translations are short and sweet, like “Sarah,” being the feminine form of “Sar,” means “Princess” (or a female “Winner”). Sometimes, the names are whole phrases: Iy-kaaVowd (Ichabod) = “(there is) no glory,” when the “glory” - the Ark of the Covenant - was taken by the P’lishtiym (the Philistines).  Sometimes, the name, like Maheer-Shaalaal-Chaash-Baz, can be quite lengthy. The name means “hurrying to the booty, eagerly hurrying to the plunder.” This is ONE such name consisting of six parts, not multiple names.

 

 

 

ok, we will have to agree to disagree I guess. In everything I have ever read on this verse and with all my study it seems clear to me it is calling the son born unto us the mighty God, the everlasting father. Every translation I have ever read backs up my understanding of this verse. For you to say " I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace." " Is to say every translation there is translates this verse wrong. I see no other possibility. For the son to be called the everlasting Father and the mighty God, either it's true or this verse is blaspheme .  I appreciate your response, but I must vehemently disagree with you on this subject and your understanding of this verse.  To deny Christ being God is to nullify the Crucifixion. I am at a complete loss of what else to say other than I will pray for you. If Jesus was/is not God then he wasn't/isn't worthy to die for our sin, the Crucifixion was in vain and we are all still in our sin. All of Christianity revolves around the deity of Christ . I will pray for you. I wish I knew what else to say. I feel so sorry for you. I will pray that your eyes are opened to the truth on this.

God bless you

Firestormx

Joseph

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Joseph (Firestormx) 

Retrobyter ,

Isaiah 9:6 

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

I've been following this thread for a while and was curious if you would answer a question for me. If Jesus is not God then how do you explain the verse above? Thank you

Firestormx

And, thank you, Firestormx, for the question. Ignore everything that we’ve discussed so far (especailly the rabid ranting of shiloh357).

Here’s the gist of what I’ve been saying and what I believe in a picture of the hierarchy:

God (the Father), who is Spirit, who is Holy, and therefore is "the Holy Spirit,” eternal and infinite in all positive respects

|

Yeshua`, the Messiah of God and His King-Apparent, once the Word, now the Son of God, eternal but not quite infinite in all respects by virtue of His body

|

| (HUGE GAP HERE!!!)

|

Messengers (the supernatural messengers of God, also transliterated from the Greek as “angels”)

|

Human leaders and governments

|

Commoners (other men with little or no authority over other men)

====

Yesha`yahu 9:6 is the following transliterated from the Hebrew:

5(6) kiy yeled yulad laanuw been nitan laanuw vat-hiy hamisraah `al shikmow vayiqraa’ shmow pele’ yow`eets eel gibowr aViy `ad sar shaalowm:

JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH (without capital letters since there is no such thing in Hebrew)

5(6) kiy = 5(6) for

yeled = a-male-child

yulad = is-born

laanuw = to-us

been = a-son

nitan = is-given

laanuw = to-us

vat-hiy = and-shall-be

hamisraah = the-control/government/empire

`al = upon

shikmow = his-shoulders

vayiqraa’ = and-shall-be-called

shmow = his-name

pele’ = a-wonder/miracle

yow`eets = counselor/to-devise/deliberate/resolve

eel = God

gibowr = mighty/strong/powerful

aViy = my-father

`ad = vanishing-point/eternal

sar = a-prince/winner

shaalowm: = peace:

Taking it with a grain of salt because it is, after all, a Jewish publication and is therefore an anti-Yeshua` document, the JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH words it like this: “The mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler,” and points to 25:1 as proof to the interpretation of the “is planning” part. Jewish eschatology DOES acknowledge the coming Messiah of God; they just won’t recognize Yeshua` being that Messiah. However, they DO know the correct Hebrew grammar behind the phrase. 

Also, any time that two (or more) nouns are placed back to back in Hebrew, they are in the construct state and the word “of” can be inserted between them when translated into English. For instance, “sar shalom,” is translated as “prince of peace,” showing either ownership or relationship.

I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace."

Remember: ALL Hebrew names mean something. Sometimes, the names and their translations are short and sweet, like “Sarah,” being the feminine form of “Sar,” means “Princess” (or a female “Winner”). Sometimes, the names are whole phrases: Iy-kaaVowd (Ichabod) = “(there is) no glory,” when the “glory” - the Ark of the Covenant - was taken by the P’lishtiym (the Philistines).  Sometimes, the name, like Maheer-Shaalaal-Chaash-Baz, can be quite lengthy. The name means “hurrying to the booty, eagerly hurrying to the plunder.” This is ONE such name consisting of six parts, not multiple names.

 

 

 

ok, we will have to agree to disagree I guess. In everything I have ever read on this verse and with all my study it seems clear to me it is calling the son born unto us the mighty God, the everlasting father. Every translation I have ever read backs up my understanding of this verse. For you to say " I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace." " Is to say every translation there is translates this verse wrong. I see no other possibility. For the son to be called the everlasting Father and the mighty God, either it's true or this verse is blaspheme .  I appreciate your response, but I must vehemently disagree with you on this subject and your understanding of this verse.  To deny Christ being God is to nullify the Crucifixion. I am at a complete loss of what else to say other than I will pray for you. If Jesus was/is not God then he wasn't/isn't worthy to die for our sin, the Crucifixion was in vain and we are all still in our sin. All of Christianity revolves around the deity of Christ . I will pray for you. I wish I knew what else to say. I feel so sorry for you. I will pray that your eyes are opened to the truth on this.

God bless you

Firestormx

Joseph

And, “in everything [you] have ever read,” when have you ever read anything from a Jewish point of view? Look, I can understand why Christians would read Christian books, but if you want to understand the HEBREW behind a verse, particularly the grammar, you MUST read it from a point of view that understands Hebrew, namely, to know which words are which parts of speech in the language. We DON’T just have a string of nouns all put together! IF they were just a group of names or proper nouns put together, then they would ALL be in the construct state and you would have to put an “of” between them ALL! IF they were all INTENDED to be a group of names or proper nouns listed for the Messiah, they would have had the Hebrew letter vav in front of them, most often translated as “and."

If it had been so written, it would have read, “His name shall be called Wonderful(, and) Counsellor, and the Mighty God, and the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace,” in the KJV, since the KJV usually tried to translate the Hebrew text word for word into English. Remember how I told you that we are not currently “preaching the gospel of the Kingdom?” Look at the NEXT verse:

Isaiah 9:6-7

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV

THAT is the gospel of the Kingdom; THAT is the good news about the Kingdom!

To say that Yeshua` is GOD’S “miracle"; the eternal Father’s "Prince of Peace” is NOT blasphemy! Again, “to blaspheme” is “to belittle.” How is it belittling God to believe what He said about His OWN SON?! If anything, it belittles God to CHANGE what He said about His SON!

If the exact distance of our planet from the sun is 93,000,000 miles, to say the distance is 90,000,000 miles is obviously wrong because it is too short. HOWEVER, to say the distance is 100,000,000 miles is equally wrong because it is too long!

You all accuse me of being wrong - being “blasphemous” by belittling Yeshua` the Son of God - because I make the Son of God less than God, His Father. I say that you are being wrong - being “blasphemous” by belittling God the Father - because you make the Son of God MORE than He is, indeed, making Him equal to His Father!

Pay close attention, VERY close attention, to the following:

Luke 12:10

10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost (Spirit) it shall not be forgiven.
KJV

So, which is worse? THINK ABOUT IT!

Now, you also said, “To deny Christ being God is to nullify the Crucifixion. ... If Jesus was/is not God then he wasn't/isn't worthy to die for our sin, the Crucifixion was in vain and we are all still in our sin.” Really? Says whom? So, it’s not enough for Him to be the Son of God, as the Scriptures say? (And, the Scriptures NEVER called Him “God the Son.”) It’s not enough that He was called, “the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world?” (John 1:29) It’s not enough for God to say, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased?” (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; 9:7; Luke 3:22; 9:35; 2 Pet. 1:17) What about Revelation 5?

Revelation 5:5-10

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

He had to be the spotless, sinless Lamb of God, but that doesn’t mean that He therefore must be God! One who is God is One who is sinless, but is it true that One who is sinless must be the One who is God? If A-->B, is it true that B-->A? NO! The converse is not necessarily true! One can say the contrapositive is true, namely, ~B-->~A, or the One who is NOT sinless is the One who is NOT God, but neither the converse nor the inverse (One who is NOT God is One who is NOT sinless).

Remember 2 Corinthians 5:

2 Corinthians 5:18-21

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (who has exchanged places with us through Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (the service of exchanging places);

19 To wit, that God was in Christ (the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself (exchanging places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the subject of exchanging places).

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ (the Messiah), as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead (on the Messiah’s behalf), be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God).

21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (the Messiah).
KJV

That’s how God’s justification of an individual works. Modern “Christianity” MAY INDEED “revolve around the deity of Christ.” But, SHOULD IT?! I say, based on God’s Word, “NO!"

Yeshua` did not have to be God to be the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world any more than the innocent animals whose blood was shed in sacrifice had to be God! As the SON of God, He was far more worthy than the innocent animals which were sacrificed and sufficient for a year. You’re coming to conclusions that aren’t supported in Scripture. Look at Hebrews 10:

Hebrews 10:1-22

10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV

Show me where it says Yeshua` must be God to offer that one sacrifice for sins! BTW, it’s not the “cross” that was so important; it was the “BLOOD” that was shed for us that took away our sins. And, it’s the RESURRECTION of which it is said,...

1 Corinthians 15:12-17

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
KJV

The resurrection was GOD’S work on behalf of His Son that makes the difference. It was GOD who raised up the Messiah!