The Lord Jesus Christ

[Your closest friendnt]

Shalom, shiloh357, Bible2, and Qnts2.

Sorry, brothers, but it’s YOU who don’t know squat!

Look, the problem is in the GREEK! Not the Hebrew! The Hebrew “Adonay” translated to the Greek “kurios”; the Hebrew “YHVH” translated to the Greek “kurios.” This is a problem which arose within the few centuries around our Lord’s coming. (The original Greek, the Koine Greek of the NT, did not use capital letters as we do today; so, PLEASE don’t make the mistake of thinking that you can drag that into this argument!) This is true not only for the papyri and manuscripts of the NT, but also for the Septuagint! Which was which? WHEN translators who were knowledgable about Hebrew and Greek knew what was translated, they translated the “kurios” of the LXX into the English “LORD” (for the Hebrew “YHVH”) and “Lord” (for the Hebrew “Adonay”) in the KJV. Other versions do not do so well. They were not consistent in doing so within the NT.

So, I agree that SOME of the occurrences of “kurios” in the NT stem from the Hebrew “YHVH,” but certainly not ALL of them! Many more are occurrences of translation from the Hebrew (or Aramaic) “Adonay,” meaning “master” or “sir.” Consider: When you read of a stranger coming up to Yeshua` during His ministry and saying, “Lord, help me,” (Greek: “kurie, boeethei moi,” Matt. 15:25), that stranger is not calling Him “YHVH!” That would be absurd! Furthermore, others in the crowd would have taken personal offense and said something right away or might even have acted violently against such “blasphemy!” She was saying to Him, “Sir, help me!” Also, when is “worshipping” not “worshipping?” The answer is “when someone is bowing down!” When the same person is said to have “worshipped him” (Greek: "prosekunei autoo"), it simply means that she fell down at His feet, begging for His help! DON’T READ INTO THE SCRIPTURES MORE THAN IS THERE! THAT’S EISEGESIS!

.

You are well educated, you are rightly dividing the Greek and you understand the couture and contex and you give very sound scenarios.

[Guest shiloh357]

Sorry, Retro...    But I speak and read Hebrew and you don't know what your talking about.   You don't know squat.   "LORD"  in English Bibles appears everywhere YHVH appears in the Hebrew text.

 

When the word LORD is applied to Jesus it is always a reference to his deity, as YHVH.    Sorry, but I am not buying into your heretical teachings.  I will stick with the Scriptures and the Scriptures teach that Jesus is God   Let God be true and Retrobyter a liar.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, shiloh357.

 

Sorry, Retro...    But I speak and read Hebrew and you don't know what your talking about.   You don't know squat.   "LORD"  in English Bibles appears everywhere YHVH appears in the Hebrew text.

 

When the word LORD is applied to Jesus it is always a reference to his deity, as YHVH.    Sorry, but I am not buying into your heretical teachings.  I will stick with the Scriptures and the Scriptures teach that Jesus is God.  Let God be true and Retrobyter a liar.

 

Well, of COURSE "Retrobyter [is] a liar!” Just as surely as “shiloh357 is a liar!” I would like to think that I don’t MEAN to lie and I don’t do it all the time and that I don’t do it very often, but I would be lying to say that I don’t lie! (Sounds like there’s a joke in there somewhere, doesn’t it?) Look, we even lie when we’re not AWARE that we’re lying! Does that, therefore, mean that both you and I are ALWAYS lying? NO! So, call me a liar if you choose, but remember the three fingers pointing back at yourself when you point at me and call me a liar!

 

Now, you said, "When the word LORD is applied to Jesus it is always a reference to his deity, as YHVH.” IF the word “LORD” were applied to Yeshua`, then I would agree with you, but I can’t because it ISN’T! It’s the word “Lord” that is applied to Yeshua` EVERYWHERE! Why is that? It’s simply because EVERYWHERE that the word “LORD/Lord” is used to refer to Yeshua` is it ALWAYS “Lord,” not “LORD!” And, why is that? It’s simply because all the words “LORD/Lord” that refer to Yeshua` are ALWAYS from the Greek word “kurios!” PERIOD!

 

You continued to say, `"LORD"  in English Bibles appears everywhere YHVH appears in the Hebrew text.' I too speak and read Hebrew; I PREFER it when reading the Tanakh, but this isn’t about the Hebrew; it’s about the GREEK! We’re talking about the NEW Testament (the NT or the B’rit Chadashah), and that compilation was NOT written in Hebrew! (At least, not in the preserved texts that we have.) It was written (or translated into) and preserved in KOINE GREEK, the COMMONER’S GREEK!

 

That’s not a “heretical teaching”; that’s the NAKED TRUTH! And, anyone with a little bit of sense and a good concordance (such as Strong’s) can check it out for themselves! The NT doesn’t USE “Hebrew,” except on a few rare exceptions that were transliterated and then translated also into the Greek!

 

So, get off your high horse, buddy! You also said, “I will stick with the Scriptures and the Scriptures teach that Jesus is God.” Well, that’s not true either; the Scriptures teach AT BEST that Yeshua` is the SON of God! If you’re going to be picky, be picky with it ALL, not just the part that you WANT to believe!

 

Now, I’m not saying that Yeshua` isn’t divinity, nor am I saying that He is; I’m just giving the facts of the LANGUAGES involved in writing the NT!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Your closest friendnt.

 

...

You are well educated, you are rightly dividing the Greek and you understand the couture and contex and you give very sound scenarios.

 

 

Thank you for that kind word. It’s nice to know that there are SOME on this forum who understand what I’m trying to say.

[enoob57]

Now, I’m not saying that Yeshua` isn’t divinity, nor am I saying that He is;

It appears to us then that you are not saying anything

[Qnts2]

Shalom, shiloh357, Bible2, and Qnts2.

 

Sorry, brothers, but it’s YOU who don’t know squat!

 

Look, the problem is in the GREEK! Not the Hebrew! The Hebrew “Adonay” translated to the Greek “kurios”; the Hebrew “YHVH” translated to the Greek “kurios.” This is a problem which arose within the few centuries around our Lord’s coming. (The original Greek, the Koine Greek of the NT, did not use capital letters as we do today; so, PLEASE don’t make the mistake of thinking that you can drag that into this argument!) This is true not only for the papyri and manuscripts of the NT, but also for the Septuagint! Which was which? WHEN translators who were knowledgable about Hebrew and Greek knew what was translated, they translated the “kurios” of the LXX into the English “LORD” (for the Hebrew “YHVH”) and “Lord” (for the Hebrew “Adonay”) in the KJV. Other versions do not do so well. They were not consistent in doing so within the NT.

 

So, I agree that SOME of the occurrences of “kurios” in the NT stem from the Hebrew “YHVH,” but certainly not ALL of them! Many more are occurrences of translation from the Hebrew (or Aramaic) “Adonay,” meaning “master” or “sir.” Consider: When you read of a stranger coming up to Yeshua` during His ministry and saying, “Lord, help me,” (Greek: “kurie, boeethei moi,” Matt. 15:25), that stranger is not calling Him “YHVH!” That would be absurd! Furthermore, others in the crowd would have taken personal offense and said something right away or might even have acted violently against such “blasphemy!” She was saying to Him, “Sir, help me!” Also, when is “worshipping” not “worshipping?” The answer is “when someone is bowing down!” When the same person is said to have “worshipped him” (Greek: "prosekunei autoo"), it simply means that she fell down at His feet, begging for His help! DON’T READ INTO THE SCRIPTURES MORE THAN IS THERE! THAT’S EISEGESIS!

 

Once again proving you do not know Hebrew.

 

Adonai almost always applies the God. The exception is when the word is applied to a plural subject, such as pagan gods. When the word is applied to a single god, it refers to YHVH. The strength of the plural term, Adonai, is enforcing the majesty of the One Trud God.

 

You do not know Hebrew grammar and a concordance assumes you already know the grammar. If you knew the grammar, you would not confuse Adonai for the common term lord or master (adoni).

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, enoob57.

 

 

Now, I’m not saying that Yeshua` isn’t divinity, nor am I saying that He is;

It appears to us then that you are not saying anything

 

 

All I’m saying is that my topic wasn’t about the deity of Yeshua`. My point was that the Greek mixes up the Hebrew words “Adonay” and “YHVH” by translating BOTH OF THEM into the ONE Greek word “kurios.” Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Qnts2.

 

...

 

Once again proving you do not know Hebrew.

 

Adonai almost always applies the God. The exception is when the word is applied to a plural subject, such as pagan gods. When the word is applied to a single god, it refers to YHVH. The strength of the plural term, Adonai, is enforcing the majesty of the One True God.

 

You do not know Hebrew grammar and a concordance assumes you already know the grammar. If you knew the grammar, you would not confuse Adonai for the common term lord or master (adoni).

 

 

And, once again, you are proving that YOU know nothing about GREEK ... nor of Bible translation ... nor of textual criticism ... nor of archaeology ... nor of language study, etc., etc., etc!

 

Tell me this, O wise Qnts2, what’s the difference between Adonay (Adonai, as you write it) and Adoniy? How are they spelled?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom to all,

 

Look, do I have to spell it out for you over and over again?

 

Strong’s gives us this family of related Greek words:

 

NT:2959 Kuria (koo-ree'-ah); feminine of NT:2962; Cyria, a Christian woman:

KJV - lady.

 

NT:2960 kuriakos (koo-ree-ak-os'); from NT:2962; belonging to the Lord (Jehovah or Jesus):

KJV - Lord's.

 

NT:2961 kurieuoo (ko-ree-yoo'-o); from NT:2962; to rule:

KJV - have dominion over, lord, be lord of, exercise lordship over.

 

NT:2962 kurios (koo'-ree-os); from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Mr. (as a respectful title):

KJV - God, Lord, master, Sir.

 

NT:2963 kuriotees (koo-ree-ot'-ace); from NT:2962; mastery, i.e. (concretely and collectively) rulers:

KJV - dominion, government.

 

NT:2964 kuro-oo (koo-ro'-o); from the same as NT:2962; to make authoritative, i.e. ratify:

KJV - confirm.

 

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

By following the relationships, one will arrive at the following outline-form for these relationships:

 

kuros (root) = supremacy (abstr. noun) [0x]

A. kurios - NT:2962 = lord (masculine noun) [751x]

A.1. Kuria - NT:2959 = lady (feminine noun) [2x]

A.2. kuriakos - NT:2960 = of-the-lord (adjective showing ownership) [2x]

A.3. kurieuoo - NT:2961 = I-rule (verb) [7x]

A.4. kuriotees - NT:2963 = mastery (abstr. noun) [4x]

B. kuro-oo - NT:2964 = I-make-authoritative; I-ratify (verb) [2x]

 

SOMETIMES (and very often), this will refer to GOD’S supremacy over all, but SOMETIMES, it will refer to a human being’s supremacy over other human beings or a land. The number of times each is used (in the NT, obviously) is found in the brackets at the end of each point of the outline.

 

Since NT:2962 [751x] SWAMPS the others [collectively only 17x], we focus on NT:2962 or “kurios.” The word itself is used of Yeshua`, particularly in the Gospels (we all know that), but it is also used of others in the Scriptures:

 

“mammon” - Matt. 6:24, Luke 16:13

Pilate - Matt. 27:63

Philip - John 12:21

the “gardener” - John 20:15

the “masters” of a fortune-teller - Acts 16:16, 19

Paul and Silas - Acts 16:30

Caesar Augustus - Acts 25:26

masters of slaves - Eph. 6:5, 9; Col. 3:22; 4:1

other lords - 1 Tim. 6:15

Abraham - 1 Pet. 3:6

 

Now, if you want to agree that all of these statements were calling the recipients of this title, “YHVH,” THEN AND ONLY THEN can you say that every occurrence of this word “kurios” refers to the Name of God! Any takers? (There’d better NOT be!)

 

 

Now, I talked about this back in post #16, but would someone (who believes that “kurios” when referring to Yeshua` always refers to His deity) care to explain how to understand what the Pharisees could and could not accept in Matt. 22:41-46, Mark 12:35-37, and Luke 20:40-47 regarding “The Lord said to my Lord...” when both terms (“Lord" and "Lord”) are “kurios?” And, try to stick to the New Testament to do so, if you will.

[Qnts2]

Shalom, Qnts2.

 

...

 

Once again proving you do not know Hebrew.

 

Adonai almost always applies the God. The exception is when the word is applied to a plural subject, such as pagan gods. When the word is applied to a single god, it refers to YHVH. The strength of the plural term, Adonai, is enforcing the majesty of the One True God.

 

You do not know Hebrew grammar and a concordance assumes you already know the grammar. If you knew the grammar, you would not confuse Adonai for the common term lord or master (adoni).

 

 

And, once again, you are proving that YOU know nothing about GREEK ... nor of Bible translation ... nor of textual criticism ... nor of archaeology ... nor of language study, etc., etc., etc!

 

Tell me this, O wise Qnts2, what’s the difference between Adonay (Adonai, as you write it) and Adoniy? How are they spelled?

 

I never claimed to know Greek. You keep including Hebrew, and I do know something about Hebrew.

 

The Hebrew lettering system is different then the Roman alphabet. When a person transliterates, they go for the letters in the foreign alphabet (non-Hebrew) which would formulate the closest sound to the Hebrew word. Some variation is allowed since you are not actually spelling the word in the original language but approximating the sound or ennunciation. I grew up with Adonai as the transliteration from Hebrew. I also grew up with Adonoy as an alternate, more based on Hebrew with a Yiddish influence.

 

Adonai is plural. Adoni is not plural. Adoni means lord and master when referring to humans. Adonai means Lord and almost always refers to God, but there are exceptions. This is all basic Hebrew grammar.   

 

added: Hebrew speakers transliterate the word as Adonai.

 

Example: http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/shema.htm

 

That shows a standard prayer in Hebrew, transliterated Hebrew and then translated to English which begins with Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad