The Lord Jesus Christ

[thereselittleflower]

 

Shalom, shiloh357, and happy Resurrection Day (haYowm Ri’shown, the “Head Day” or Sunday).

 

Litteflower,

 

The truth is the truth.   I have no problem being judged by the same standard I am operating under.  I have nothing to hide.   I am as much as open book before you as I am before God.  I am not the one teaching heresy, and denying the essential God-hood of Jesus.

 

The work of Jesus on the cross was not the work of a mere man dying for our sins.   A mere man could not pay for our sin.   Only God can do that and Jesus as God paid for our sins on the cross.

 

Retrobyter would have us not believe the Gospel and rather believe that a mere man was good enough to pay for all of the sin of all mankind.   That is antithetical to the Gospel, and heretical. 

 

What I find interesting is how someone like you who breathes such horrific anti-Semitic views in other threads is defending a heretic in this thread.  Rather amusing...

 

The truth IS the truth, but your INTERPRETATION of what is truth is WAY OFF! I am NOT teaching heresy; I’m expounding upon what you call “the essential God-hood” of Yeshua`. You would have us believe that there is absolutely no difference between Yeshua` and the Father! THERE IS a difference! If there weren’t a difference then one of them would be redundant and superfluous! When Yeshua` taught that He and His Father were one, it’s the same “one-ness” as that between a man and his wife! A man and his wife don’t literally become one bigger body! They are still two people, but they have a connection - an intimacy - between them that is impossible to break!

 

Yeshua` DID pay for our sins on the cross, and He could not have done that if He wasn’t sinless! And, He couldn’t have been sinless if He were merely a man! I TOTALLY believe that Yesha`yahu the prophet (Isaiah) was talking about Yeshua` in Isa. 53, but notice that TWO are involved!

 

Isaiah 53:7-12

7 He (Yeshua`) was oppressed, and he (Yeshua`) was afflicted, yet he (Yeshua`) opened not his mouth: he (Yeshua`) is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he (Yeshua`) openeth not his (Yeshua`s) mouth.

8 He (Yeshua`) was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his (Yeshua`s) generation? for he (Yeshua`) was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he (Yeshua`) stricken.

9 And he (Yeshua`) made his (Yeshua`s) grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his (Yeshua`s) death; because he (Yeshua`) had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his (Yeshua`s) mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD (God His Father) to bruise him (Yeshua`); he (God His Father) hath put him (Yeshua`) to grief: when thou (YOU singular, the reader) shalt make his (Yeshua`s) soul (literally, “breather,” i.e., his breathing body) an offering for sin, he (God His Father) shall see his (Yeshua`s) seed (YOU the reader), he (God His Father) shall prolong his (Yeshua`s) days (or possibly the days of Yeshua`s seed), and the pleasure of the LORD (God His Father) shall prosper in his (Yeshua`s) hand.

11 He (God His Father) shall see of the travail of his (Yeshua`s) soul (literally, “breather,” i.e., his breathing body), and shall be satisfied: by his (God-His-Father’s) knowledge shall my righteous servant (Yeshua`) justify many; for he (Yeshua`) shall bear their (the many’s) iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him (Yeshua`) a portion with the great, and he (Yeshua`) shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he (Yeshua`) hath poured out his (Yeshua`a) soul (literally, “breather,” i.e., his breathing body) unto death: and he (Yeshua`) was numbered with the transgressors; and he (Yeshua`) bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

KJV

 

However, the PERSON to whom this passage refers, Yeshua`, had to be CONTAINED within His (Yeshua`s) body, and that CONTAINMENT (the INCARNATION, the state of putting God “in flesh") LIMITED HIM (Yeshua`)! As the Word, He was co-equal with God (John 1:1-5); as the Son of God, Yeshua` was/is subservient to God His Father (1 Cor. 15:20-28)! That’s not said to put Him down (to blaspheme Him); that’s just the way it was and still is! HOWEVER, God (His Father) has also exalted Him to a status greater than ANYONE ELSE ON THE EARTH THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY (Phil. 2:5-11)! God (His Father) has committed unto Him (Yeshua`, His Messiah - His Anointed One - His Selected Representative) all judgment (John 5:19-27)! Even when He has returned, become Isra’el’s King, and become the King of kings (the World Emperor) as promised throughout prophecy, He will still be subservient to His Father in the end after He has put down all of His enemies (1 Cor. 15:28)! That’s what the Scriptures say, and that’s what I believe.

 

Anything more than this is from a theological argument.

 

 

 

Do you not understand that you are simply promoting your own theology and making your own theological argument?

[thereselittleflower]

Litteflower,

 

The truth is the truth.   I have no problem being judged by the same standard I am operating under.  I have nothing to hide.   I am as much as open book before you as I am before God.  I am not the one teaching heresy, and denying the essential God-hood of Jesus.

 

The work of Jesus on the cross was not the work of a mere man dying for our sins.   I mere man could not pay for our sin.   Only God can do that and Jesus as God paid for our sins on the cross.

 

Retrobyter would have us not believe the Gospel and rather believe that a mere man was good enough to pay for all of the sin of all mankind.   That is antithetical to the Gospel, and heretical. 

 

What I find interesting is how someone like you who breathes such horrific anti-Semitic views in other threads is defending a heretic in this thread.  Rather amusing...

 

 

My dear Shiloh, you are simply wrong on both counts.

[Guest shiloh357]

No, Retro, I am not saying that Jesus and the Father are one and the same; not by  longshot.  

 

Jesus as God the Son is as much God as God the Father.  They are co-equal members of the Trinity.  The oneness in purpose is not what I am talking about.  Jesus and the Father are equally God.  That's Bible 101

[Guest shiloh357]

I am not wrong on either counts.  

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, shiloh357.

 

No, Retro, I am not saying that Jesus and the Father are one and the same; not by  longshot.  

 

Jesus as God the Son is as much God as God the Father.  They are co-equal members of the Trinity.  The oneness in purpose is not what I am talking about.  Jesus and the Father are equally God.  That's Bible 101

 

No, sir. That is NOT “Bible 101”; it’s “THEOLOGY 101,” and it’s EXACTLY what I warned you against!

[Guest shiloh357]

No, Jesus claimed to be God.   That's Bible 101.  The book of John was written to affirm and declare that  Jesus was/is God.   You can't be a true follower of Jesus if you deny the deity of Jesus. 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, shiloh357.

 

No, Jesus claimed to be God.   That's Bible 101.  The book of John was written to affirm and declare that  Jesus was/is God.   You can't be a true follower of Jesus if you deny the deity of Jesus. 

 

“In MY OPINION, you can’t be a true follower of Jesus if you deny the deity of Jesus,” you mean! Besides, I DON’T deny the deity of Yeshua`, and you are a liar for saying that I do!  Book, chapter, and verse, bubba. Where did Yeshua` say, “I am God?” He said, “I am the SON OF God!” Would you even admit to the fact that YESHUA` HIMSELF denied "the deity of Yeshua`?"

 

John 10:24-42

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.

41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.

42 And many believed on him there.

KJV

 

Psalm 82:6-8

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

KJV

 

Matthew 19:16-17

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

KJV

 

Mark 10:17-19

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

KJV

 

Luke 18:18-20

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

KJV

 

I am not wrong on either counts.  

 

You are wrong on both accounts when you say, “That is antithetical to the Gospel, and heretical.” First of all, you don’t know what the true Gospel is, and I am a FAR cry from being directly opposed to the true Gospel. The true Gospel, the true good news about the Kingdom, is this:

 

Isaiah 52:7

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

KJV

 

That being said, you don’t really mean this “Gospel” at all. You mean the message about the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah as the fundamental factors in the great exchange between our sin and God’s righteousness in the Messiah most understood as "God’s justification of an individual," which is the FUNDAMENTAL property of what people erroneously call “salvation” today.

 

THAT’S Bible 101.

[JohnD]

Jesus is the center of it all (John 5:39-40, Luke 24:27, John 8:24). Even in prophetic depictions of him he is typically in the middle between two witnesses (Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration, the two crucified with him, the two pillars in the tabernacle as he is "the door," and so on). In the middle as well "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." Equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit in his Spirit (God the Word became man), that man being the only creation of the Father making him both the Father of Jesus and the God of Jesus to enable Jesus to be our kinsman redeemer.

 

Lone Creator in the beginning of all things created (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, Hebrews 1:1-2, Isaiah 44:24) acting alone, by himself though in the company of the Father (1 John 1:1-2) and of the Spirit of God (Genesis 1:1-2). He is the King of Kings and LORD of Lords... coming soon to claim his throne and to baptize with fire.

 

He is my Savior who redeemed me from my sin and my date with eternal hellfire. I love him more than anyone or anything else. I wish I showed it better and more often. He is my God and because he is I am an adopted son of his Father and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He has been more gracious and kind to me than I ever deserved in not only salvation but blessings and opportunities without number. He is my all in all.

[Bible2]

shiloh357 said in post 70:

 

The work of Jesus on the cross was not the work of a mere man dying for our sins.   I mere man could not pay for our sin.   Only God can do that and Jesus as God paid for our sins on the cross.

 

Amen!

 

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

 

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

 

--

 

shiloh357 said in post 76:

 

Jesus as God the Son is as much God as God the Father.

 

That's right.

 

Just as a human father is greater than his son in his authority, not in his humanity, for a human son is equal to his father in his humanity, so God the Father is greater than God the Son (John 14:28c, Hebrews 1:8) in his authority (1 Corinthians 15:28), not in his divinity, for God the Son is equal to God the Father in his divinity (Philippians 2:6, John 1:1,14, John 10:30).

[Bible2]

Retrobyter said in post 80:

 

Matthew 19:16-17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

Note that Jesus allowed people to call him God (John 20:28), and he affirmed that he is good (John 10:11) and one with God (John 10:30). So the point of his question in Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, and Luke 18:19 wasn't to deny that he is God or good, but "why" was the man calling him good? Jesus knew that the man didn't believe Jesus was God. So Jesus was warning him not to just go around calling different people good, but to call only God good.