what is the way.. for who died without hearing gospel.

[Guest shiloh357]

No, other one...  Not according to Shiloh.   Rather according to Joel 3: 1-3

[Leonard]

If Jesus has been to hell, then even hell is not without hope.

[thereselittleflower]

Littlfelfower,

 

he debated George, the owner of this thread in the soapbox forum about the deity of Jesus.   He denies it openly in various threads, as well.

 

ok - I also see now where he does have issues with the divinity of Christ.

 

But my question to you remains.   Do you think you're going to convince him by hitting him over the head with a sledge hammer?

 

 

Galatians 5:22-23

22 In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

[Your closest friendnt]

If Jesus has been to hell, then even hell is not without hope.

When Jesus went to Hades (Seol), he was out of the body, and that's the only way to go down there, and he went there to bring the good news to the captives and prisoners, he had the life in him, and he gave the life to all who believed in him, he set them free and took them to the new heavenly inheritance with him. He had not judge them to be there in the first place, they were Heirs or victims of the fallen Adamic inheritance. Both Jews and Gentiles. He is not going there again, it's impossible, for many reasons. Now the people who are there, are because Jesus is their judge, he is the one who judge them and they can not be in heaves if they have denied him, because heavens belongs to him, and he is the one who now has the keys of Hades and death, he opens and not one can close, and he close the gates of Hell and no one can open. God gave him the Gates of his enemy the Devil also for his inheritance. He is the Lord of Lords now. And he the Thrne of heavens for his inheritance. Every power is subjected to him now.

What is your concern to have this hope? Jesus is not quick to sent his believers to Hell, because of disobidience, or unrepentance of sin and or because they took their own life, all this accusations will come before him, and he will point to the cross, and also say:

O death where is thy sting, because of sin,

Sin can not give death to a believer, even one with the faith of a musrard seed.

The believer is under the eternal founded of the blood of Jesus Christ as long as he believes.

[Guest shiloh357]

The fact remains that YOU brought up the issue of children to ME.   I did not raise that issue.  When I answered your question, you accused me of going off topic.

 

Yes, those who deny the deity of Jesus will argue that they are not denying that Jesus is the Son of God.  The problem lies in that fact that you define that concept differently than the Bible does.   Furthermore, you assert that Jesus was given a divine nature when He was raised from the dead, thus denying the deity of Jesus during his earthly ministry, even though the Bible affirms that Jesus was God the entire time, and even Jesus professed to be God during His earthly ministry.   

 

You are a heretic in the normative theological sense of the term. I am not saying that as a pejorative.  You are a practicing heretic because you deny Jesus as God.  "Son of God"  refers to Jesus' deity.   Jesus was the Son of God during His earthly ministry and even his enemies understood that as the Son of God, it meant that Jesus was claiming to be, in fact, God.

 

Additionally, Jesus is not a partaker in the divine nature.   Jesus was not granted a divine nature.   Jesus was virgin born as God in the flesh.  He was God on the cross and he was God at the resurrection.  There has never been a time that Jesus was not God.  When the Bible talks about us as partakers in the Divine nature, it is not talking about receiving divinity.   That is pagan.  We are not going to become gods.  It is talking the moral characteristics of God and it is something we are looking forward to, but something we (not you) have now.

 

Yes you split Rev. 20: 12-13 and split it, and there is no reason to and you are wrong for doing that.  That's not what the text does.  YOU are imposing your own little heresies on to the text.   There is no division warranted.

 

Where are the books of the Bible and this "book of remembrance mentioned in Rev. 20:12-13?

 

Essentially, what you are proposing is another plan of salvation, salvation based on works for those who didn't hear about Jesus and you are assuming that God is going to give people a chance after death to be saved.   Sorry, but that is what you penciling into the Bible.   We, who are Christians and Bible believers must reject your view as it is not found in Scripture.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

 

InChrist,

 

Are you a Jehovah's Witness? 

 

Sorry to take the topic off-track.

Between you and me my accusers wish I was...so they could better handle me....but if you wish to know my back ground I use to be Catholic....now I'm just a messianic gentle without a earthly church

 

 

 

I am not in a position to "handle" anyone, and hope I am not an "accuser"!

 

 

You said that you used to be Catholic. I'll ask the obvious, and I am sorry if this is too personal. You can just ignore me and I will not be offended, and hope you are not by my questions.

 

You believe you were wrong about Catholicism. At the time you "were" Catholic, were you convinced that it was "right"?  [ unless you were a child at the time you accepted those teachings ] If so, then you know all too well that being convinced of what is "right" may not be one's "final answer". 

[thereselittleflower]

Shiloh357

Still can't answer the question now let's start a lynching war instead.

 

YOU brought up the issue of infants and I responded to YOUR comments. Then you claim I am off topic.

You still not getting it....

Please pay attention you said the following

No exceptions for children. Children old enough to make a decision for or against Christ will either go to hell or spend eternity with Jesus.

In order for a child or a person to reject or accept Christ they need to know about Christ in the first place...

The OP'S question is centred round those who have not heard about christ or the gospel. ...they are not in the position to accept or reject Christ in this life time....what happens to them?

I am not engaging in personal attacks. YOU reject Jesus as God and declare that Jesus is just a man. Sorry, but that is a rejection of Jesus. You are cannot reject Jesus' deity and be a believer.

Well yes you are actually...Instead of us looking into scripture to get the answer for the OP and others, you decide it's rather best to go on some bipolar tantrum....

Do I deny Jesus is the Son of God... no....do I deny the divine nature of Jesus.... no it was bestowed upon Jesus when he was resurrected, the same promise that will be bestowed upon saints as partakers in the divine nature.

I don't need to provide anything more

Well thats because there's nothing to provide from you; you never had an answer to begin with.

All I've done is taken

Rev. 20: 12-13

And split it

Group A

And I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works

Group B

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

....now some how you have concocted some twisted imagination "I'm adding" to scripture...when infact the correct response is to see if I'm rightly dividing scripture in order to find an answer.

Now if we look at group A we go to Daniel 7:10 We get the following image

A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

We start developing an image of a court room drama being played out...Now what books are open?

1. The book of Life - those in the second resurrection are brought back to life in their physical bodies...their names contrary to what you think are written in the book of life---- the court is to decide whether to blot that person out of the book of life and face the second death

Psalm 69:28

May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

2. The books of the bible - We have God's knowledge of his people, and his declaration of their repentance, faith, and good works; showing the blessings of the new covenant. By their works men shall be justified or condemned; he will try their principles by their practices. In other words by their deeds. Those justified by the gospel will be saved.

A perfect example of this is given by Jesus himself which you have repeatedly ignored. That is the story of the Samaritan, an unbeliever helping the poor man who was beaten by thieves Luke 10:30-36 study it!!!!

3. The book of remembrance

Is actually something very interesting, it records every conscious decision or thought we have ever made.

Now conscience is a keyword

Because in scripture we have Paul Romans, chapter 2, where he says:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature those things contained in the lawin their hearts, their CONSCIENCE bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another;) in the day when God shall JUDGE the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..." (Romans 2:14-16).

Some of them, because of their "conscience" which God gave them, were basically "good" people.

So whether a person from a tribe in south America before colonialism or africa or your Eskimos or places where the gospel has not reached, God has given man a conscience with which to know and meditate on God to show forth the law which is written on their hearts...like the unbelieving Samaritan who helped a person who has beaten and robbed by theive ---- Jesus counts him as a brethren.

It is God's responsibility to someday see that those deceived millions become undeceived and are given their chance for salvation -- for He is not willing that any perish!

 

 

 

My dear inchrist.

 

The divine nature was not bestowed on Jesus at the resurrection.

 

 

Jesus was always divine.    He said  before his death:

 

"Before Abraham was born, I AM."

[thereselittleflower]

Sadly, every time someone brings up the Catholic Church their posts are full of misinformation.  For instance in the interest of bringing clarity to a subject often misrepresented:

 

not just shiloh,  but all of scripture, all the witnesses of truth in Christ Jesus, show that billions who reject Him are condemned...

 

who has not heard the GOSPEL?   roman catholics have not - over 2 billion now and past...

 

http://www.eaec.org/cults/romancatholic.htm

 

"This is the sad origin of the Roman Catholic Church as it compromised from the very beginning with paganism and in doing so became a cult serving the creature (Mary) more than the creator (Jesus)."

 

"Prior to the time of Constantine's "conversion," Christians were persecuted not so much for their profession of faith in Christ, but because they would not include pagan deities in their faith as well. Then, with Constantine's emphasis on making his new-found Christianity palatable to the heathen in the Empire, the "Christianization" of these pagan deities was facilitated. For example, pagan rituals and idols gradually took on Christian meanings and names and were incorporated into "Christian" worship (e.g., "saints" replaced the cult of pagan gods in both worship and as patrons of cities; mother/son statues were renamed Mary and Jesus; etc.), and pagan holidays were reclassified as Christian holy days (e.g., the Roman Lupercalia and the feast of purification of Isis became the Feast of the Nativity; the Saturnalia celebrations were replaced by Christmas celebrations; an ancient festival of the dead was replaced by All Souls Day, rededicated to Christian heroes [now Halloween]; etc.). A transition had occurred – instead of being persecuted for failure to worship pagan deities, Christians who did not agree with the particular orthodoxy backed by the Emperor were now persecuted in the name of Christ! "Christianized" Rome had become the legitimate successor of pagan Rome! This is the sad origin of the Roman Catholic Church as it compromised from the very beginning with paganism and in doing so became a cult serving the creature (Mary) more than the creator (Jesus)."

http://www.eaec.org/cults/romancatholic.htm

 

 

The problem with this claim above is if praying the saints is something that started because of Constantine,  according to the source above, then why does history contradict these claims and source?    

 

Why was one of the most ancient prayers of the christian church, the earliest copy of which (so far) was found on an Egyption Papyrus -(the beauty of the unicals suggest it was for use by an engraver so something important and not hastily invented)  -    the Sub Tuum  -  We Fly to Your Patronage  -  to the Theotokos,  Greek for Bearer of God,  universally accepted in the Church long before Constantine?  It was found in the Coptic liturgy.     Why did the Early Church Fathers, who always were quick to take issue with wrong doctrine and heresy. never once denounce this universal christian prayer?

 

Why, if prayers to saints and angels were an invention that rose AFTER Constantine, do we find every early examples in important christian works?

 

I prayed [to the Angel of Repentance, who is called the Shepherd] much that he would explain to me the similitude of the field…And he answered me again, saying, “Every one who is the servant of God, and has his Lord in his heart, asks of Him understanding, and receives it, and opens up every parable; and the words of the Lord become known to him which are spoken in parables. But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask Him. But you, having been strengthened by the holy Angel, and having obtained from Him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from Him?” I said to him, “Sir, having you with me, I am necessitated to ask questions of you, for you show me all things, and converse with me; but if I were to see or hear these things without you, I would then ask the Lord to explain them.”

 

The Shepherd of Hermas, 3.5.4

Rome, Date:  AD 85-90 - AD 140-155 

 

 

 

Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you, who was the fourth person with you who was walking in the midst of the furnace and who was hymning to God with you as from one mouth? Describe to us his form and beauty so that we also, seeing him in the flesh, may recognize him

 

 Hippolytus of Rome praying to the 3 holy youths in the firey furnance of Daniel: Commentary on Daniel, 30.1[2]

Rome, AD 202-211

 

 

Now supplication and plea and thanksgiving may be offered to people without impropriety. Two of them, namely pleading and thanksgiving, might be offered not only to saints but to people alone in general, whereas supplication should be offered to saints alone, should there be found a Paul or a Peter, who may benefit us and make us worthy to attain authority for the forgiveness of sins.

 

Origen of Alexandria on prayer to the saints

On Prayer, 14.6 [3]

Alexandria, Circa AD 253

 

 

In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]

 

 Clement of Alexandria

Miscellanies 7:12

Alexandria, AD 208

 

 

There is much more evidence than this above.

 

If popes did not exist until Constantine, whey were the Bishops of Rome, some of which were martyred, buried in a special location in the catacombs BEFORE Constantine in the 200's?

 

 

Your source leaves a great deal to be desired and seems more interested in promoting fabrications and falsehoods than historical fact.  History simply says something else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

Definatlly they did not have the scriptures available to see that they may enter the holy place with thanks giving aided by the grace and the love of the savior and make their supplications before the Throne of Grace without fear, but the did what they knew and they had the blessings of the Savior never the less, thanks for the explanation,

And Jesus is always merceifull, ready to help. And we learn that their faith was unwavering and were ready for the ultimate sacrifise, even unto death. Thanks for the input.

[Your closest friendnt]

those who prayed to mary , or any other saint, before or after, were still sinning.

that small excerpt is simply the tip of the iceberg --- the truth and evidence entirely is showing

that the rcc is the false church,

and everything posted promoting or defending it is sinful.

.

I seperate the people from the church, I learn about Jesus from my parents and they had a bible at home and we were celebrating the Passover and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, with fasting and prayers. I still have marks on my body for not praying earnestly. (marks of disobidience). And they teach me to see Jesus seperate from the people who claimed to represent him, some of the leaders of the church.