Trinity Explanation...

[Guest His_Servant]

I know this has probably been talked about over and over, and I apologize for bringin it up once again. I just came from the "Oneness Believers" thread, and started to post there, but thought it would be better to start another thread on this.

I attend a church which believes in the holy trinity, and for a long time, I never really thought much about it. When I did begin thinking about it, I found out that I don't really understand it. It seems really confusing to me. After that, I couldn't get it off my mind. I even began to wonder if it was wrong of me to sometimes say "Jesus" while praying, and other times say "Father". I searched and searched the scriptures to try to better understand it, but that didn't help much. Sometimes it seemed clear that the trinity made sense...sometimes not. Most of what I read was in the book of John.

Joh 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

So with this I'm thinking, Christ and God were always together...and Christ was God.

Joh 1:7-11 "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. (8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. (9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. (11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not."

Here I understand that John the Baptist was sent to bare witness of Christ. I also understand that Christ made the world. I also read where Jesus says to those who question him, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." When they heard this, they were outraged because God is known as I AM. God himself even called himself this in the Old Testament. Then I have read all the scripture where Jesus prays to his Father, and where he explains that he is sent by his Father, and speaks what his Father has taught him to speak. It confuses me MAJORLY!

So this is probably going to sound EXTREMELY stupid, but would someone please explain this to me....does the Trinity mean ONE GOD, but like three different manifestations (not sure if that is the right word???), or is that more like the Oneness belief? Are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit three separate beings, and if so, how are they one? I read in Revelation where Jesus says he is the "Alpha and Omega...the beginning and the end...the first and the last." So I do believe Jesus is God (was God in the flesh on earth), but then I cannot understand the SEPARATE but one thing. Okay, and heres the REALLY stupid question.....if the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all separate (yet one), does Jesus (the Son) literally sit at the right hand of his Father (God...whom Christ is also)...I mean literally sitting side by side in Heaven....whilst the Holy Ghost (Spirit of God) literally dwells within all believers on earth (which I do believe)????? Can you tell I'm confused????

Father, Son, Holy Spirit=GOD

GOD the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost

All separate (literally) yet ONE, or ALL just different roles of our ONE OMNIPRESENT GOD????

I cannot understand the separate thing AT ALL. I feel like there are three Gods if they are truly separate (and I don't believe there are 3 gods). I kinda feel like....God is OMNIPRESENT and can be anywhere at anytime...he is everywhere. God came to earth in Christ Jesus (but was still in Heaven because he can be anywhere he wants to be all at the same time) who was both fully God, and fully human (because he faced human hardship, temptation, etc). As for the Holy Spirit....UMMM God too. Just as Jesus our Lord/the Lord God, the Holy Spirit is, always was, and always will be.....and is the Spirit of God

I also don't understand how the Oneness view of God could not also be considered the Trinity?????? So far, it has all sounded the same to me...all except for the separate thing that some make mention of.

Another question...does it really matter if one doesn't fully understand this? I read in the book of John (and perhaps I understood it wrong) where Jesus tells his disciples, (Joh 14:11) "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." Again, I could very well be wrong, but I understood this as Jesus saying, "Believe what I am telling you, or at least believe me for the works I have done." So is a person in trouble if they do not understand the trinity?

Also, the praying thing I don't worry about anymore. Whether I say Father, Jesus, or God...I know I am speaking to the same GOD, and feel as though it doesn't matter how I address him. Does anyone see this as being wrong? If so, please explain.

I KNOW I HAVE ASKED A ZILLION QUESTIONS RATHER THAN JUST ONE!!!!

Anywho, I feel I have been confusing enough for one night! If anyone can explain this for me, I will greatly appreciate it. I have heard where some try to explain it by using the sun...how the sun is/does different things for people, but is the same sun, but that doesn't seem to clear anything up for me. With that illustration, I still see only ONE sun...even if some see it in different ways, it is one sun and not separate. I'll stop here. Thanks in advance for any help on this!

Edited January 30, 2005 by His_Servant

[Trinity]

So this is probably going to sound EXTREMELY stupid, but would someone please explain this to me....does the Trinity mean ONE GOD, but like three different manifestations (not sure if that is the right word???), or is that more like the Oneness belief? Are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit three separate beings, and if so, how are they one?

I like to use Deuteronomy 6:4 to prove the Trinity. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one Lord." In Hebrew there are two words for the word one, the word (Echad) meaning united group, and the second word for one is (Yachiyd), which means alone and single. So the verse could had been translated "The LORD our God is united." Three seporate people yet United, Just like a clock, many peices ONE CLOCK, you wouldn't call one clock a clocks would you? well its the same with God.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit=GOD

GOD the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost

All separate (literally) yet ONE, or ALL just different roles of our ONE OMNIPRESENT GOD????

The Father couldn't do anything without the Spirit, who could do nothing without Jesus, who could do nothing without the Father, who could do nothing without Jesus, who could do nothing without the Spirit.

The Father is the Planer, Jesus is like the Head man who fulfills the plan, and the Holy spirit is like the Power.

So is a person in trouble if they do not understand the trinity?

God has not called everyone to the knowledge, for the things of God are hard to understand, i know nothing, but with the knowledge God gives me i share or im hurting the body. The answer is no, you don't have to understand the Trinity, God never said Have knowledge in me and you will be saved, he calls us to have faith.

I Hope this all helps you out

[other one]

This is what I see in the bible concerning a Trinity. May not be correct but it is what I see the scripture saying about the relationship between the three.

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form of Jehova.

Further:

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me;

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit. I fear discussing the workings of The Spirit for none of this in more than my personal beliefs, and to get something wrong concerning the Spirit could be a grave mistake.

I will just say that I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit from The Father.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it back to the Father.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

NASB

[Guest His_Servant]

Thank you both for your replies. I admit I am still pretty confused lol, but it is late for me....need sleep. I plan to re-read each post. God Bless!

[Guest Jacee]

Hi

I was doing word studies on the 1st chapter of John and in verse 18 it says No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the BOSOM of the Father, he hath declared him.

I captitalized the word bosom because it is the greek word kolpos and it means by analogy a bay.

So how I envisioned this is that God would be like the ocean; Jesus would be like the bay, is still the ocean but in a contained area. Is the same with Holy Spirit. He is the one who gave light back into our spirit. It was light that was lost with the fall of Adam and Eve. They were clothed with light. Then became naked. Jesus, being the light of the world reestablished that for us and our spirits lifed again by God also brought us back into fellowship. He is spirit and we worship in spirit and truth it says elsewhere. So He, Holy Spirit is now in the world within and alongside of us. If we view the body of Christ on earth and the head being Jesus in heaven, we see what is really the temple of God on earth today.

And I also heard a testimony of one who was taken into the throne room of God. He said Jesus "stepped out" of Father. I tend to believe he is speaking truth. But experiences aren't accepted by the masses. Is just my personal belief he is truthful.

[Lekcit]

Not to overuse the analogy bit but I think I can offer some assistance. The first thing to remember is something that one of my Old Testament professors in college taught us. He said, The Old Testament does not teach the Trinity but it allows for it. Look at Genesis 1 in the creation of man. God said, "Let Us make man in our image." There are others that have been mentioned as well such as the one from Deuteronomy.

One of the best ways to explain and understand the Trinity (I use this with children, by the way.) is to think of an egg. It is an egg. One egg. Simple to understand. However when we crack open the egg we see parts, three main parts. There is the shell, the white, and the yolk but all still an egg.

Hope this helps.

In Him.

[Leonard]

His Servant: Look up the Creed of St. Athanasius. There is about as good a treatment of the Doctrine of the Trinity as has ever been made. It is not a defence of the doctrine but a statement of the doctrine.

[John3;16]

I believe the ability to understand the trinity is beyond our comprehension, at least beyond a elementary understanding, but scripture reveals it, and we can chose to believe or reject this fact, we can ask for understanding and if you have faith God can give you peace about this mystery, we see through a glass darkly but then face to face, we will understand all things, there are many things that are beyond our comprehension in this world, what causes chromosomes to align during meiosis?, how did God speak the universe into existence?, how can mater come into existence from nothing?, how could God exist eternally?, how can space continue indefinitely?, and if it didn

[Guest truebeliever7]

hs,

here is my take on the trinity or lets say the tip if the iceberg. As you can tell in verse 15 He(Jesus) is the image of God and Jesus is the firstborn over all creation. So that tell us Jesus was present before everything was created. And this is the definition of image according to strongs.

1504 eikon (i-kone');

from 1503; a likeness, i.e. (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance:

KJV-- image.

Col 1:13-19

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

(NKJ)

This ought to take care of the how are God and Jesus one question. Remember there are many places it talks about Jeus being in us or God being in us. But that does not make us Jesus or God.

John 17:22-26

22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

25 "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.

26 "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

(NKJ)

As far as praying you pray to your Father in Heaven. And when you finish you say in Jesus Christ name I pray Amen.

Matt 6:7-13

7 "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

9 "In this manner, therefore, pray: our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name.

10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

(NKJ)

Remember scripture says the only way to the Father is through the Son. So when we finish our prayers we finish them in Jesus Christs name.

John 14:6

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

(NKJ)

You also asked ;Another question...does it really matter if one doesn't fully understand this?

YOU BET! It may be the most important thing we need to understand in the bible. We wont enter the Kindgom of heaven without knowing who Jesus is. Think about it if satan can get people confused on who Jesus is then they have just lost they salvation.

John 10:10

10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

(NKJ)

There are many examples in the bible but the most important one is the sacrifice God made by sending His only begotten Son to give us a was for salvation.

John 14:6

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

(NKJ)

John 14:6

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

(NKJ)

John 3:17-18

17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(NKJ)

We can all relate to the sacrifice that it must have been for God to send His Son to die. That is how we know Gods love for us. How hord would it be for us to do that to one of our children?

John 3:16

16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

If Jesus were God where was the sacrifice from God? God was giving us an example of what a sacrifice was. jesus would teach us much more. God always has been and always will be, so if God came down from heaven as Jesus died and went back up to heaven what did He sacrifice? A little time away from home or what? I don't think so. God sent His Son just like you or I would send our son somewhere to do for us.

I Jn 4:10-12

10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

(NKJ)

God was in Jesus just like He is in you and I and like Jesus is in us, but that does not make us God or Jesus now does it?

John 5:42-44

42 "But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.

43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

44 "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?

(NKJ)

John 14:16-17

16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--

17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

(NKJ)

Rom 8:9-11

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

(NKJ)

We have the Spirit of God in us if we can say Jesus is lord.

1 Cor 12:3

3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

(NKJ)

Hope this cleared some things up and didn't confuse you any worse. When we get confused that is just satan trying to get us farther away from Christ.

1 Cor 14:33

33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

(NKJ)

God bless and keep on reading God will give you understand in His time frame you just be obedient and read and believe.

[Botz]

If Jesus were God where was the sacrifice from God? God was giving us an example of what a sacrifice was. jesus would teach us much more. God always has been and always will be, so if God came down from heaven as Jesus died and went back up to heaven what did He sacrifice? A little time away from home or what? I don't think so. God sent His Son just like you or I would send our son somewhere to do for us.

Pure and simple this is a heretical teaching.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.