Hell Needs Clarification

[JohnD]

Please supply the scriptures.

Thanks.

Although there will be a resurrection of the damned, they will not receive "spiritual" bodies such as those of the saints, which are also glorified bodies.  We are not told what kind of bodies they will be, but they will be "eternal" since the torments of Hell will be eternal.  We need to be careful to limit ourselves to what is revealed in Scripture (Rev 20:12,13). 

On a side note, beware of Clark Pinnock and his liberal theology.  He turned liberal many years ago, and now here is what we are seeing: "There is increasing evidence that many evangelical Christians involving a variety of denominations are moving toward conditionalism."  There is no Scriptural support for this, and all the verses that seemingly talk about annihilation must be view in the light of clear passages which do not, particularly the words of Christ Himself.

First off, you quoted no scripture. I showed scripture to back the interpretation I have arrived at.

Furthermore, aside from what may well be mere anthropomorphism in the scripture text of Luke 16:19-31 (the account of the rich man and Lazarus), all the "physical" traits spoken of in the text refer to the disembodied (spirit) subjects of the account.

Anthropomorphism is a 50 ¢ word for using language people could understand about the spirit realm supplying physical attributes to that which is not actually physical. I recall in an episode of Start Trek Voyage when the Q continuum was at civil war the imagery was of how I believe the Battle of Waterloo appeared (with that era's weaponry, uniforms, etc. of a very ancient time to Captain Janeway). Q's explanation was that this was to express to her understanding that which she otherwise had no experiential reference to. 

It could be anthropomorphic language. But it could also just as actually be the traits of spirit beings. And for whatever reason we have falsely assumed the traits we have and experience in our physical bodies are:

• unique to our physical bodies
• are not in unison with the traits of our spirits

Phantom pain, for example, from a physically severed limb. Imagined? Transferred? The brain compensating for what once was and now is not? Or actual pain felt from a spirit limb that cannot be removed by physical amputation?

And where is our spirit in our bodies? The heart? The head / brain?

Is a spirit some cloud like cloud shaped will of the wisp as some imagine it?

Point being, the suffering in eternal hell is assumed to be only physical suffering from the description of it in scripture based solely on these presumptions.

 

 

[JohnD]

What we segregate as strictly physical may actually be in concert with the spiritual.

[Ezra]

Please supply the scriptures.

Thanks.

Although there will be a resurrection of the damned, they will not receive "spiritual" bodies such as those of the saints, which are also glorified bodies.  We are not told what kind of bodies they will be, but they will be "eternal" since the torments of Hell will be eternal.  We need to be careful to limit ourselves to what is revealed in Scripture (Rev 20:12,13). 

First off, you quoted no scripture. I showed scripture to back the interpretation I have arrived at.

How did you fail to read Revelation 20:12,13 which is clearly shown above? It reveals the resurrection of the damned, and there are other Scriptures which speak of the resurrection of the just and the unjust as two separate resurrections.

Point being, the suffering in eternal hell is assumed to be only physical suffering from the description of it in scripture based solely on these presumptions.

I don’t believe that is what is assumed.  If there are bodies, then it follows that the persons within those bodies (the souls and spirit) are alive, and it is the entire person (body, soul, and spirit) which is in torment.  As to the location of the spirit we know that it is the innermost part of the soul (Heb 4:12,13), and yet distinct from it.

[Guest shiloh357]

Recently, I heard two different evangelists talk about hell.  Both of whom are preachers of the word whom I would say are reliable.  But their take on hell was completely different, and they both used multiple scriptures, in context, to back up their position.  I haven't had time to study this on my own but I am curious what others think.  This is a simplified version of what they taught.

Position 1: If you are judged to go to Hell, you're there for eternity to pay for your sins.  Of course if you're a believer, the blood of the Lamb cleanses you from all unrighteousness.  This is a very orthodox position.

Position 2: If you are judged to go to Hell, you're there until the punishment for your sins is paid in full.  Then you are annihilated and cease to exist.  This is an unorthodox position which has a name (which I forget) that at least some relatively well known evangelists have embraced.

Does position 2 make sense?

 

Hell is mass reset.

Could you please clarify or eloborate further on what you mean exactly by your reply that "Hell is mass reset"?.

Hell is a system that resets users to their original setting, fully corrupted users suffer death (Which is the second system.) These systems prevent corrupted users entering life.

 

 

Genesis 2-17

Hell and people are not a computer to where you can wipe the old data off and start again. Your analogy of hell isn't even close to being biblical.

isnt God deleting or wiping away the old data of earth and heaven? Reseting it to a new earth and new Heaven? 

This resetting would prevent a "virus" such as sin from entering the new earth and new heavens, where life is to begin again. So why wouldn't corrupted "files" ( people) be deleted?

No, that is not a "reset."   I can reset an old computer.    God is destroying everything and making something completely new, that never existed before.  That is way more than a "reset."

[Ezra]

No, that is not a "reset."   I can reset an old computer.    God is destroying everything and making something completely new, that never existed before.  That is way more than a "reset."

Precisely. God Himself says "BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW". In this context we need to remember that Hell -- the Lake of Fire -- is in "outer darkness" and will not be able to pollute the New Heavens and the New Earth. 

No man knows the location of outer darkness, but it would appear that it is outside our universe, therefore completely isolated from earth and this universe. Hell was created for the Devil and his angels, and once they have been consigned to the Lake of Fire, there will never again be another Devil and his evil angels.  And all the unrighteous and the ungodly will remain in the Lake of Fire. 

The prospect of eternal Hell should cause every person to give serious thought to the Gospel and respond to it. But if the true nature of Hell is distorted by unbelieving preachers, then the true Gospel is also distorted.  What we see more and more is the denial of eternal Hell, or simply a refusal to acknowledge this reality.

[Ezra]

In BOTH states the first death and the second death the soul Is RENDERED UNCONSCIOUS, there is no breath of life in either state. So how is one to be tortured if they are unconscious to being tortured?

Those statements are UNWARRANTED ASSUMPTIONS.  We need to see what all of the Scriptures say to understand that those consigned to the Lake of Fire are in eternal conscious torment day and night forever and ever. So let's look at the Scriptures.

CONSCIOUS ETERNAL TORMENT FOR THOSE WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11).

When a person has no rest day nor night, that means he is in a conscious state.

CONSCIOUS ETERNAL TORMENT FOR THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev 19:20).

When a person is “cast alive” that means he is in a conscious state.

CONSCIOUS ETERNAL TORMENT FOR SATAN HIMSELF

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

When a creature is tormented day and night forever and ever, that means he is in a conscious state.

 CONSCIOUS ETERNAL TORMENT FOR THE UNSAVED

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works...

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  (Rev 20:12,15).

Since all those already in the Lake of Fire are in conscious eternal torment, it follows that all the unsaved (not written in the Book of Life) are also in such conscious torment.

 CONSCIOUS ETERNAL TORMENT FOR ALL THE UNRIGHTEOUS AND UNGODLY

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

Since the Lake of Fire does not change, all these are also in eternal conscious torment.

[Hippie333]

kainos

Pronunciation

kī-no's

KJV Translation Count — Total: 44x

The KJV translates Strongs G2537 in the following manner: new (44x).

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. new

   1. as respects form

      1. recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn

   2. as respects substance

      1. of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of

[Openly Curious]

Recently, I heard two different evangelists talk about hell.  Both of whom are preachers of the word whom I would say are reliable.  But their take on hell was completely different, and they both used multiple scriptures, in context, to back up their position.  I haven't had time to study this on my own but I am curious what others think.  This is a simplified version of what they taught.

Position 1: If you are judged to go to Hell, you're there for eternity to pay for your sins.  Of course if you're a believer, the blood of the Lamb cleanses you from all unrighteousness.  This is a very orthodox position.

Position 2: If you are judged to go to Hell, you're there until the punishment for your sins is paid in full.  Then you are annihilated and cease to exist.  This is an unorthodox position which has a name (which I forget) that at least some relatively well known evangelists have embraced.

Does position 2 make sense?

 

Hell is mass reset.

Could you please clarify or eloborate further on what you mean exactly by your reply that "Hell is mass reset"?.

Hell is a system that resets users to their original setting, fully corrupted users suffer death (Which is the second system.) These systems prevent corrupted users entering life.

 

 

Genesis 2-17

Hell and people are not a computer to where you can wipe the old data off and start again. Your analogy of hell isn't even close to being biblical.

isnt God deleting or wiping away the old data of earth and heaven? Reseting it to a new earth and new Heaven? 

This resetting would prevent a "virus" such as sin from entering the new earth and new heavens, where life is to begin again. So why wouldn't corrupted "files" ( people) be deleted?

No God is not deleting or wiping away old data of earth and heaven.  Nor is God going to reset it to a new earth and new Heaven.  God is going to literally destroy the earth and heaven that exist right now with fervent heat (fire) as the heavens will melt.  God is not going to recreate the heavens and earth that are now instead God is going to create a whole new heaven and earth where everything will all be brand new.  The computer analogy will not work in light of what the scriptures actually teach.  God doesn't need a delete or reset button for he is the Creator Himself and has a plan of his own to fulfill.

[Guest shiloh357]

Recently, I heard two different evangelists talk about hell.  Both of whom are preachers of the word whom I would say are reliable.  But their take on hell was completely different, and they both used multiple scriptures, in context, to back up their position.  I haven't had time to study this on my own but I am curious what others think.  This is a simplified version of what they taught.

Position 1: If you are judged to go to Hell, you're there for eternity to pay for your sins.  Of course if you're a believer, the blood of the Lamb cleanses you from all unrighteousness.  This is a very orthodox position.

Position 2: If you are judged to go to Hell, you're there until the punishment for your sins is paid in full.  Then you are annihilated and cease to exist.  This is an unorthodox position which has a name (which I forget) that at least some relatively well known evangelists have embraced.

Does position 2 make sense?

 

Hell is mass reset.

Could you please clarify or eloborate further on what you mean exactly by your reply that "Hell is mass reset"?.

Hell is a system that resets users to their original setting, fully corrupted users suffer death (Which is the second system.) These systems prevent corrupted users entering life.

 

 

Genesis 2-17

Hell and people are not a computer to where you can wipe the old data off and start again. Your analogy of hell isn't even close to being biblical.

isnt God deleting or wiping away the old data of earth and heaven? Reseting it to a new earth and new Heaven? 

This resetting would prevent a "virus" such as sin from entering the new earth and new heavens, where life is to begin again. So why wouldn't corrupted "files" ( people) be deleted?

No, that is not a "reset."   I can reset an old computer.    God is destroying everything and making something completely new, that never existed before.  That is way more than a "reset."

 The Greek word translated “new” here is kainos, which can mean a renewal, refreshing, or refurbishing of something that already existed, as in “new [kainos] covenant” (Hebrews 8:13). The Mosaic Law, on which the Old Covenant was based, was not done away with (for example, the Ten Commandments are still intact, and Jesus said, “…till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law  till all is fulfilled” - Matthew 5:18). 

 

 

By the way, the Greek word that is most often translated “brand new” or “recently born” is neos, as in 1 Corinthians 5:7. The difference in the two terms is subtle, and sometimes they are used interchangeably, but the point is that in this verse, kainos can, and apparently does, refer to a renewal rather than to a total replacement of the first earth and heaven.... a resetting a refreshing

 

 

 

Revlation 20: 11 indicates that the present earth and heavens are destroyed.  This universe will not continue.  By the time we get to the great white throne, all has been destroyed. This is also depicted in II Pet. 3:10-13.   It is not a renewal at all.  It is the uncreation of the heavens and earth and the creation of a completely new heavens and new earth.  There is no context for kainos to mean "renewal" in Revelation 21 or 22 in reference to the new heavens and new earth.

[JohnD]

Please supply the scriptures.

Thanks.

Although there will be a resurrection of the damned, they will not receive "spiritual" bodies such as those of the saints, which are also glorified bodies.  We are not told what kind of bodies they will be, but they will be "eternal" since the torments of Hell will be eternal.  We need to be careful to limit ourselves to what is revealed in Scripture (Rev 20:12,13). 

First off, you quoted no scripture. I showed scripture to back the interpretation I have arrived at.

How did you fail to read Revelation 20:12,13 which is clearly shown above? It reveals the resurrection of the damned, and there are other Scriptures which speak of the resurrection of the just and the unjust as two separate resurrections.

 

Point being, the suffering in eternal hell is assumed to be only physical suffering from the description of it in scripture based solely on these presumptions.

I don’t believe that is what is assumed.  If there are bodies, then it follows that the persons within those bodies (the souls and spirit) are alive, and it is the entire person (body, soul, and spirit) which is in torment.  As to the location of the spirit we know that it is the innermost part of the soul (Heb 4:12,13), and yet distinct from it.

 

Oh I read what you posted that you thought / interpreted to mean all of the dead are raised in the same way. But it does not say that. And I repeat my point that you have not and cannot find a scripture that says all the dead (believing and unbelieving are raised from the dead in the same way with eternal bodies). For the sake of the readers I will print the scriptures in question:

Revelation 20:12–13 (AV)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Hebrews 4:12–13 (AV)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The verse only states the word of God can divide soul and spirit and body parts. This disproves nothing I have posted.