The powerless gospel of Calvinism

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Willa said:

 I am not arminian in my theology, but I am not a good calvinist either.  

Willa, that's an excellent balance.  Keep up the good work.  We all need to be Biblicists and leave Arminius and Calvin on the shelf.

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

You know, there is one aspect of this thread, that I should have remarked on from the beginning. That would be the title. There is no Gospel of Calvinism, there is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Calvinists, Arminians, and every other flavor of Christian only know the gospel that man is a sinner and separated from God, but God Himself, fixed that problem by sending His Son, , the Son of God, and God the Son, into the world as Jesus of Nazareth, to die a horrible death on a cross, a sinless man dieing to redeem sinners to to God, purchasing, randsoming us, rescuing us from our chosen destiny, our wages of sin. By God's grace alone, can we receive salvation, through faith in Jesus and His resurrection, it is the gift of God. 

If that were the extent of the Calvinist Gospel, we could all say a heart "Amen" and rejoice. It is when you get into the travesty of TULIP that the Gospel starts to unravel.

[JohnD]

On 10/29/2015 at 6:59 PM, The_Patriot2016 said:

I love how everyone's so quick to hate Calvin. And they always point at tulip. But what they don't realize is those are a small part of what Calvin taught and often theyre misquoted. Even the most stolid of armeniians if they were to read John Calvin's commentaries theyd agree with 95% of what he said

So long as that 95% agrees 100% with scripture, I'm all in! Otherwise, I'm out!

There are many many sources who get things % right. It's the % they get wrong that is the problem Only scripture gets it 100% right.

 

[thereselittleflower]

49 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Only scripture gets it 100% right.

 

On that we are in 100% agreement

 

Now if we could only all just agree on what it says.  

 

 

[Littlelambseativy]

When we see Calvin in the rapture we shall have a lot to ask him and see what the Lord says out our disagreements. Regardless what Calvin taught, he with the other reformers like Knox, Luther, Zwingli etc have brought us to this discussion and by God's grace opened our eyes to God's word and truth.

[Reinitin]

On 10/29/2015 at 3:24 PM, InSeasonOut said:

 Before, you read this I must be clear im not an "Arminianist" or part of any denomination. Arminianism has many problems as well but Calvinism is a heresy that often needs correcting. And I'll be referring to 5 point Calvinism or TULIP - but i reject all forms of it. If you follow Christ you are a Christian and should identify yourself as such. When i hear someone identify themselves as a Calvinist, Arminian etc then i tend to think that person follows a man 1 Corinth. 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

So here is what I've come to learn about Calvinism. They don't really believe in "Total depravity" - they believe in "Total inability"

The Lord Jesus Christ said   And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32 (Calvinists change scripture to "..all the elect...")

Long story short - there is power is the gospel, in the name of Jesus Christ. There is evidence for the "existence of God" and many great apologists. But the problem with that is if a man can convince you with great intellect then another man can come along and unconvince you with his intellect. (evidence is great for humble seekers) As Christians we are suppose to preach the gospel - using the law - 10 commandments to prick their conscience.- Intellectual arguments go nowhere with prideful people.

1 Peter 5:5 "...God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."  (Preach the Law to the proud - and grace to the humble)

So the gospel cuts through the intellect to reach the conscience. Using the law, acknowledging sin, judgement and hell, - the proud will often admit they are not good people and deserve hell when judged by the 10 commandments. "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness..." And whether they believe it or not they are without excuse (Romans 1:20). Thats another subject...the point is when their conscience bears witnesses and they hear the gospel God will draw all men unto Christ. Forget intellect - God has made foolish the wisdom of this world. When God draws you near to him, and one truly becomes born again, there is no unconvincing.

Back to the Calvinist's belief in Total depravity - or Total inability -

They say i could preach the gospel to a crowd of a million people - all of which are the "non-elect" - Not one of them can get saved.

Calvinists believe in a powerless gospel - and a heartless "god" - that will not draw sinners to repentance when Christ is preached. They just burn in hell. = Heresy

Total Depravity - Calvinists believe the unsaved man is dead in trespasses and sins to the extent that it affects his will; so that, he cannot will to be saved (Ephesians 2:1-4). ! Man’s nature is depraved (Ps. 39:5-6; Jer. 17:9; Luke 11:13; Rom. 7:24; Gal. 1:4), but he is still held responsible for his actions (Isa. 45:19; Matt. 12:36-37; Luke 17:1). Israel is held accountable for the crucifixion (Acts 2:22-23; 4:10; 7:52) and Gentiles are held accountable (Rom. 2:6-11). ! Man was created with a freewill to accept or reject God’s will (Exo. 35:5, 21, 29; Ezra 7:13-16; Rev. 22:17). ! God commands a man to receive Christ (1 John 3:23). ! The new birth is conditioned upon receiving Jesus Christ by faith (John 1:12-13).

Unconditional Election - Calvinists believe  a person is chosen by God in eternity past and was put into Christ unconditionally based upon God’s sovereign grace (Ephesians 1:4-5). ! Election is conditioned upon the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2). ! The emphasis in the choosing of Ephesians 1:4-5 is Christ, not man. Man was not here before the foundation of the world. Christ should receive the preeminent place, not man.  God chose before the foundation of the world that salvation was to be in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 1:9-10). ! Election is not directed at salvation, but service. One is elected to serve a purpose (Isaiah 42:1; 45:4; 65:9; 1 Peter 2:6; 2 Peter 1:10). 

      A citizen by birth can be elected to public service by the vote of the people. ! Election is always in a precise or temporary setting; in that, a person is put into Christ at the moment of receiving Christ (John 1:12-13; 1 Cor. 12:13).  Once in Christ then the benefits of eternity are given to a finite being who had a beginning, but will have no end. ! According to Calvinism, some are elected to hell. If this is so, a man is obeying God’s will by rejecting a command of accepting Christ (Acts 17:30-31; 1 John 3:23). ! According to Calvinism, some innocent babies are elected to hell, which is directly contrary to the teaching of Romans 9:11 that every innocent child is elected in regards to the grace of God (Deut. 1:39; Rom. 2:6-16; 4:15; 5:13). When a child reaches the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 3:5-6), he or she is held accountable. ! If a man is elected to salvation IN Christ before the foundation of the world, that man fell out when Adam sinned (before salvation a man is IN Adam -- Romans 5:14-21; 1 Cor. 15:21-22); therefore, on this point an Arminian and a Calvinist agrees. If Calvinism is right, at salvation a man is put back into Christ. What could cause him to fall out of Christ again?  See any Arminian and he’ll expound all he knows within thirty seconds with time to spare. ! Before salvation, a man is not recognized by God (Matt. 7:21-23) because he is under God’s wrath (John 3:36 Eph. 2:11-14). A man is born - he must be born again, of the Spirit. You can not be given the second man if you are not in the first (1Cor, 15:47-49)

Limited Atonement - Calvinists believe Jesus Christ died only for the elect because they are the only ones who can repent (John 10:11) ! Unlimited atonement is Scriptural (John 3:16-21, 36; 1 Tim. 2:3-6; Heb. 10:10, 29; 2 Peter 2:1; 3:9). Limited atonement is a myth. ! Tyre and Sidon would have repented if given the chance (Matt. 11:20-24).
Irresistible Grace - Calvinists believes the Holy Ghost draws a man to Christ and overshadows the elect to the extent that he cannot resist God’s sovereign grace to salvation (Acts 13:48). ! The Spirit of God draws a man to Christ, but the man’s part is acceptance of the Gospel through his freewill (Rom. 10:13-14; 1 Cor. 4:15; 9:22; 1 Tim. 1:15). ! The ones ordained to eternal life are Gentiles who follow their conscience in doing right, such as Cornelius. These Gentiles receive the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ (Acts 10:1-11:18; Romans 2:1-16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). ! Eleazor, a type of the Holy Ghost, asked Rebekkah, a type a Christian (Gen. 24:58). ! God’s grace can be resisted as there are sins against the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3; 7:51; Eph. 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:19).

Perseverance of the Saints - Calvinists waffle between preservation and perseverance on this petal of the flower.  Calvinists say that the saints will persevere in the faith; and if they do not persevere, they are not of the elect. ! Perseverance and eternal security (once saved, always saved) are not the same. Eternal security is a truth for the NT saint in the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8-9; Ephesians 1:12-14; 4:30). ! Predestination is one’s destination beforehand. A NT saint is predestinated to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29-20; Eph. 1:4-5, 11). ! Perseverance of the saint is another similarity with the Arminians.

Summary : Since a man can do nothing to be saved or obtain salvation because he is totally depraved (incapable), God through irresistible grace will unconditionally elect the chosen ones because of limited atonement.  Hyper-Calvinists do not win souls because God will save those He chooses no matter what.  Calvinists usually are self-conceited because God specially chose them and not the heathen Arminians

INSANITY - Teaching Calvinism to enlighten a non-Calvinist is absurd because his or her freewill to choose is not valid. A Calvinist is born a Calvinist against his will. I'm not a Calvinist because God predestinated me before the foundation of the world to not be a Calvinist.  I can’t help it!  I'm not an Arminian because I reject it of my own freewill.  I can't help that!   2 Thessalonians 3:1-5 (KJV)

I can see you took alot of time to write this. I never gave much reguard to John Calvins teachings because of the fruit.

[Littlelambseativy]

WOW, I had no idea that I was "self-conceited". Not certain about any of the rest. It really is too bad that those who were Calvinists and have gone to be with our Lord or are Calvinists and have introduced so many to Jesus and now are saved thanks to the work of the Holy Spirit, did not know that they were doing this out of self-conceit not because of the love of and grace of Jesus our Lord and His sacrifice. HUH!! I

I had no idea I believed in a powerless gospel and a heartless God.

[Qnts2]

3 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said:

WOW, I had no idea that I was "self-conceited". Not certain about any of the rest. It really is too bad that those who were Calvinists and have gone to be with our Lord or are Calvinists and have introduced so many to Jesus and now are saved thanks to the work of the Holy Spirit, did not know that they were doing this out of self-conceit not because of the love of and grace of Jesus our Lord and His sacrifice. HUH!! I

I had no idea I believed in a powerless gospel and a heartless God.

I know several Calvinist who work in the mission field, and both have shared the gospel with thousands. Their ministry has been the instrument which God used to draw people to Him.

I talked to one about Calvinism and his view of the great commission. He explained to me that he loves people, a love put their by God, and scripture says to go out and share the gospel. The sharing of the gospel is one of the instruments God uses to draw people to Himself. From my friends view, when he shares the gospel, he has no idea whether he is speaking to someone who is elect, or not. If they accept Jesus, then they are one of the elect. If they reject the gospel all of their living days, then they were not elect. Since God does not reveal to missionaries who is elect ahead of time, but instead commands that the gospel be shared with all, effectively, the sharing of the gospel by a Calvinist or an Arminian is the same.  

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Qnts2 said:

Since God does not reveal to missionaries who is elect ahead of time, but instead commands that the gospel be shared with all, effectively, the sharing of the gospel by a Calvinist or an Arminian is the same.  

This is good, and no doubt many have been saved by the preaching of the Gospel regardless of theology. The problem arises when a new convert is discipled and then indoctrinated into Five Point Calvinism. Once a person is thoroughly indoctrinated, they will refuse to take Scripture on its own merits, but filter everything through their erroneous doctrine.

What is probably never stated by a Calvinist preacher is that (1) the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, (2) all may be saved if all will repent and believe, and (3) God does NOT elect some for Heaven and others for Hell. Yet this is what Scripture reveals.

[Qnts2]

4 minutes ago, Ezra said:

This is good, and no doubt many have been saved by the preaching of the Gospel regardless of theology. The problem arises when a new convert is discipled and then indoctrinated into Five Point Calvinism. Once a person is thoroughly indoctrinated, they will refuse to take Scripture on its own merits, but filter everything through their erroneous doctrine.

What is probably never stated by a Calvinist preacher is that (1) the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, (2) all may be saved if all will repent and believe, and (3) God does NOT elect some for Heaven and others for Hell. Yet this is what Scripture reveals.

I'll start by saying that the teaching that God elects some for salvation/heaven and elects or reprobates some for hell is called double predestination. Many who believe that fall into the category of hyper-calvinism and teach that it is wrong to share the gospel. Classic Calvinists object to hyper-Calvinism and that teaching strongly.

In Calvinism is a parable. It goes something like this. A sinner approaches a door and over the door it says 'choose Jesus today and enter in'. The sinner believes and enters. When they look back, above the door on the other side it says 'Chosen'. So Calvinism recognizes that a person must choose, but it is not until after a person chooses that they understand that it is God who gave them that ability. 

I've said before, both Calvinism and Arminianism have or teach or believe some error. The single most important thing is the gospel of salvation. Classic Calvinists and Classic Arminians teach and know the gospel of salvation.